🎙️ Episode 22: Keep It Kind

This episode, Taz and Asha welcome guest star Julie Randall, of Enlivened, to chat through Social Media Kindness Day and World Kindness Day. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

You're listening to Awesomely Off Topic, the podcast where we talk of books, brand, business, and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. We're Taz and Dasha, ex-Gurnos, now coaches, creators and chaos navigators. Let's go! Here we are again. How on earth are we on episode 22 already? So, although we're recording this way back in August, this should be coming out on November the 11th. And the great thing about that is this episode is sandwiched between days that are all about kindness. So on November the 9th we had Social Media Kindness Day, which of course, in memory of Caroline Flack, it's very, very easy, isn't it, to just keep saying be kind, be kind, but then we forget and online bullying continues. So that's really important, marker. And then on November the 13th, all over the world, it's World Kindness Day. So, in the spirit of kindness, we've kindly let somebody in come else come in on our podcast today. We've been doing a bit of coaching work with a beautiful, wonderful lady called Julie Randall, and she's still here. We said stay, stay and come into the podcast with us. She did.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13

Brave lady.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14

She's known us for long enough now to be able to kind of assume the brace position whenever she's going to be in a small space with us. So, Julie, do you want to say a bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_03: 1:22

Hello, and thank you for inviting me. Um, I think I probably should run away, but I'm gonna stay and see how this goes. Good. So I um now work as a well-being and life transition recovery coach. Um, when I first met you guys, I was in a very different life. I was working in credit management, um, but life has taken me on a different journey, and now I do something very different. That's 73 years ago, wasn't it? When we first 73, I think it was a little bit more like 16, but nonetheless, not quite some days, some days it might feel like stuff a little bit. Yeah, uh, but for me, the fact that we still know each other and do stuff together is great too. It is, it is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

So, what what are you doing now? What's the different?

SPEAKER_03: 2:02

What's the difference? Well, I think I've taken all of the stuff I learned in my life and our work helping other people not to um really to recover from stuff. So those sorts of things are um ending relationships, getting over redundancy, um, life transitions, the things that come along are not people off course. I help them to get back on track quicker than if they were doing it on their own. Um, I know that um I spent a long time recovering from many things I experienced in life, and looking back, I wish I had had a coach to help me. So for me, it's all about helping people get to where they want to be, to live happier lives, more fulfilled lives, be more successful quicker than if they were doing it on their own. Amazing. Brilliant. Where can people find you, Julie? Because I know we'll forget if I don't ask you now.

SPEAKER_04: 2:51

Let's ask now.

SPEAKER_03: 2:52

Okay. Well, I have a website which is enlivened.co.uk, and they can get me on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, I'm actually Julie P. Randall. P is for Patricia, for those who want to know. Julie Prandall. Prandall, exactly that, exactly. They do say that on my personal Gmail account, but I yeah, for business. And um, yeah, I'm also on Facebook, and the company, as I said, is enlivened.

SPEAKER_00: 3:15

Beautiful, and you do conferences as well, we're both speaking. Well, we are by the time this comes out, we'll have spoken. And of course, we will both have smashed it, and so will Julie. It'll be it'll have been amazing. Yeah, of course. It will have been.

SPEAKER_03: 3:27

People will still be talking about it. They will be. We'll be talking about the next one then. Yeah. Good.

SPEAKER_01: 3:32

So when's the next one gonna be after this one? Uh next year. So 2026.

SPEAKER_00: 3:37

Yeah, yeah, cool. So you can find out more about that. What's what are they all about? Confidence and well-being. Which ties in beautifully to kindness. Also in the studio with us, we have a lady you may never have met before, Asher Clearwater. Asher, yeah. Where do you come from and what do you do?

SPEAKER_04: 3:51

Where do I come from? And well, I'm not sure. I think it's from another planet somewhere. I'm not sure. What do you do? I'm not sure what sort of planet I'm from, but it's from a far, far away. Yeah, it's you know, yeah, I think so. What do I do? I help people tell their stories and create um beautiful, lasting legacies for people that come after them as well as people that are with them now. That sounds like you do Wills. I know, but it is a legacy. Writing a book is a legacy. It is. It is, so yeah, I'm gonna call it that. I don't do wills, no. You sure? No, I'm sure. Yeah, that's fine. Not last time I looked, anyway. So anything could change though. Okay. The story's all about story. All about story for me and sharing stories, and World Kindness Day is about sharing and supporting. And that's and the best books do that too.

SPEAKER_00: 4:33

They do, and I've no idea who I am and why I'm here, and you know, I just like to kindly put people on the spot. So anyway.

SPEAKER_04: 4:40

Thanks, Taz.

SPEAKER_00: 4:41

Social Media Kindness Day was a couple of days back. Julie, you were saying before we went online how awful it is for kids now as well.

SPEAKER_03: 4:48

Well, I've got a ten-year-old granddaughter who um is like most of them, has a mobile phone.

SPEAKER_05: 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:54

And sometimes I I look at her and and and I see she looks sad, and I ask her what's going on, and often it's some type of for want of a better word, bullying. Bullying, and and these are people who allegedly are friends. Um and it's it's getting worse. And I know that sounds negative, but it's true. And I I think there is a I think people think that they can hide behind a phone. Yeah. Or you know, they can put something out online and it doesn't matter because they're not saying it to someone's face. But it it it it really can wreck lives, and I I I and I I'm I'm I'm worried for this next generation because I just see it getting worse.

SPEAKER_04: 5:36

Do you think lockdown has something to play in that as well? Or do you think it was there was obviously an issue there already, wasn't there? But do you think that kind of made things even more challenging?

SPEAKER_03: 5:46

I'm not sure if it did or it didn't. I think you're right, I think it's always been there. I just think it's I just think it's become the modern way to do things. Yeah. I think people are doing just just turning to that. You know, I think people feel safe. I think people will say things online um that they wouldn't necessarily say to someone's face. And for some reason, I also don't think they think it can hurt people as much.

SPEAKER_00: 6:09

It's almost like the human equivalent of treating it like monopoly money, isn't it? Yeah, it's not real.

SPEAKER_04: 6:14

Yeah, in inverted gombers.

SPEAKER_00: 6:15

We were talking to somebody only earlier today and trying to encourage them to do more video for their business, and they were saying that a couple of their younger staff members had put out a video only a week or so back. Uh and that there was one comment on TikTok, and the the the one and only comment they got was somebody picking them to pieces according to their to their size and their shape. It's just really? Somebody is out there just randomly clicking on a video of a couple of young women and just thinking they have the right to pick them to pieces. What's all that about?

SPEAKER_04: 6:47

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? If you were in you know meeting somebody face to face, you wouldn't dream of well most of us wouldn't dream of having that making those sort of comments and yet we get away with it because it's remote and nobody can see you or touch you per se and and do anything about that, or can they? And that's where how do we how do we manage that though? How do we improve things for people? That's a big question, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 7:09

Well on that subject, I think um not answering the improvement question, but I think back to online dating. Yeah, I was dating a few years ago. Crazy. You know, you're you're having a conversation with somebody and the next minute uh and you get an unsolicited picture of of parts of the body that you quite frankly fix. Absolutely. Yeah, but what gets me is if you were meeting someone face to face, do you actually say hello, how are you? Want a cup of coffee, copper load of that? I don't know. It seems to be the dumb thing, and it's like religion, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

I get that you've got one and you're very proud of it, but I don't need it wobbling in my face. It's just bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. And to be fair, if I go back far enough to the the the date of uh dating books before internet, oh before internet dating, we've been together for 27 years or 28 years old.

SPEAKER_04: 7:57

27 years-eight. You did well, it's what it feels like at least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:02

I remember even back then when it was by letter and sending photos, the women were just as bad. Did it not carry a pigeon or something? Well, some of them look some of them looked like they were carrying a pigeon, to be fair. Yep, women were just as bad as I didn't ask for that. Really? Anyway.

SPEAKER_04: 8:24

Back to kindness. Yeah, back to kindness. Yeah, back to kindness. So what is what does kindness look like for us personally, from our experience, our life experience? What is that? What is kindness for you?

SPEAKER_00: 8:36

It's it's being for me, it's being compassionate, it's about thinking about how the other person might react, not respond, because when we tend to say something unkind, it's far more the the reaction tends to be far more knee-jerk than a response. And I know that particularly in today's day and age where we're far more aware of of neurodivergence, remember that a lot of people can have RSD as well, which rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is is even worse. They feel things far more deeply, and we just need to be aware, but it seems to come out about anything. I mean, even if you go and look at something like some of the online coverage of of the women's euros, the football match.

SPEAKER_04: 9:15

I was sitting up straight now because he's one of my favourite topics. Yeah, I know, I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 9:19

And she was currently wearing a rainbow lioness's shirt.

SPEAKER_04: 9:22

And lioness's socks. Look, the kids were very dapper, they are. Thank you very much. They are very yes, the joy of the city. Well you're good, but oh dear.

SPEAKER_00: 9:30

But yeah, no, go on, but yeah, just the amount of unsolicited, horrible comments that appear all over those feeds. And if you and even if you're talking about anything like politics, and we know that we'll talk about religion and politics, we know that, but there's still no need to be quite as cruel. There's quite as horrible about it. I kind of get that you might take a pop at the politicians, you know, like when reform dropped their football shirts a few weeks back. I did I did make a comment that I always I always thought that it stood for football club before now. Um but the the the the amount of cruelty that gets thrown at people who aren't the ones putting themselves in the spotlight. So if we can wade in on things like football, politics, TV programmes, actors, celebrities, people that we don't know, and we forget that there's actually that there are feelings there. It just My point with that is it just it seems to be at any opportunity people throw shit out online. It doesn't even need to be something that provocative. It's just people are just waiting to just have a go. So and of course we can go down the coaching and counselling route of looking at what's going on in their lives, but frankly, in the heat of the moment when they're just being absolute shitheads to somebody who doesn't deserve it that they don't know, I don't really want to cut them that amount of slack. So what what can we do about it?

SPEAKER_04: 10:58

Well, it comes back to that, you know, how much do you allow, how much do you have organisations that go in to oversee that? And it's also looking at the guys that, you know, the social media guys like Facebook and LinkedIn, all these people that are running these organizations, you know, how do you monitor that? How do you work with that? It's talking to them, isn't it? A lot of them have promised stuff, but they haven't actually delivered on it, and it's still going on, and yet we seem to be somebody only recently said they were on LinkedIn and something had come up on LinkedIn, they'd reported it and nothing happened because they had no response, there was no real person to go to and say, I've got this, this has happened, can you please, you know, talk about this and get this change?

SPEAKER_00: 11:33

Well, particular particularly when you think that a lot of those organisations are based in the US, and we know some of them are amongst those who started to roll back DEI um equality rulings. So how on earth can you? But then also, how do you how do you get to the point where they can police more without being a a nanny state? I was I was seeing something online yesterday and I don't know how true it was, I haven't looked at it. But they were saying that a lot of people had been banned from Blue Sky, which is supposed to be, you know, the the platform everybody went to after Elon fucked up Twitter. I mean sorry, it meant after you say that. Did I say that after the colour? No, after Elon fucked up Twitter. Um that was the place people were going to. And this past week, which again remember that's back in August, you'll listen to this in November potentially, um, people have been thrown off for daring to say something against I don't even want to use her full name, but JKKK.

SPEAKER_03: 12:30

Don't get my own.

SPEAKER_00: 12:31

So JKKK can say all kinds of terrible things about not just trans people but people anywhere across the LGBTQIA spectrum. But if somebody says something against her, they get banned from Blue Sky. And again, I've got no basis for that, I don't know, but I've certainly seen rails breaking out over that particular situation. Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots. And I think what bothers me is it's there's so much tribalism and division now. Nobody's stopping and saying, Well, okay, you tell me your view, I'll tell you mine, and we'll find some way, we'll find some way in the middle to understand one another. But we don't seem to want to do that. We we seem to just want to keep bullying and throwing out aggro. Judy, what's your what's your take on it all?

SPEAKER_03: 13:15

Good question. I think one of the things that I'm seeing and and I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with is that what and seems, it's what seems, is that there seems to be a uh percentage of a group, whatever group it happens to be, don't like something. Yeah, and they seem to want to impose their views on everybody else. Yeah, and often the the imposing of their views goes against stuff that's been around for a long time, seems to work for the majority of people, etc. And I get that there are two sides to every story completely, probably at least three sides to every story. But what I find is why all of a sudden, when things are you know going a certain way, it seems to be a small minority seem to want to change it for the majority. Now, I'm sure within lots of these things there are some things that could do with improving, yeah, but we seem to get into the throwing the bath water out with a baby scenario. Yeah. All of a sudden, let's get rid of all of that, because all of that was rubbish, and we're now going to do this. And we're like, oh hold on a minute, what was wrong with what was before?

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

And also berate everybody else on that happens to be on the opposite side as as they perceive it.

SPEAKER_03: 14:28

Again, I I find it bizarre. You know, I personally I like a healthy debate. I love to go to I love to go and have dinner with friends and people to have different views. I love that. Yeah, that's what makes the world go around, doesn't it? Yeah, and I don't, you know, but I don't, you know, all of a sudden, you know, we don't end up at the end of the mill stabbing each other or you know, because we've got a different view. And yet on here it seems to be you can't possibly have a cis different view because if you do, you are generally called all names from you know you demonise, don't you? Yeah, from you know a dog to a goat and a lot worse, and and all of a sudden you're like, hold on a minute, just because I've got a different opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 15:03

Yeah. Do you think we're losing the art of debate though? Because it seems to me now that it's all about trying to convert the other person to your way of thinking rather than understanding why they feel the way they do.

SPEAKER_04: 15:15

But is that again, sorry to blame good old social again, but is that because we've done, we've kind of separated out, haven't we, on social? We're only the algorithm, you talk about this a lot, where the algorithm means that you are grouped here with the same values, the same opinions, and you can get stuck in. So you never see that wider perspective.

SPEAKER_00: 15:33

You assume that everybody has the same opinion, and anyone with a different opinion is in the minority.

SPEAKER_04: 15:37

When we come into the real world, i.e., or out and about and we meet somebody that maybe has a different opinion to us, we don't know how to ri respond to that. We've just got out of the habit of doing it. I think we maybe we come from a generation where we did have that open debate. Do you think?

SPEAKER_03: 15:51

Would you say or not? I think I think there was I think there was probably well sounds old fashioned, you know, to mention the word dinner party.

SPEAKER_01: 15:59

Yeah, you know, getting together and you know, it doesn't have to be all posh, but no, getting together. Not people actually having dinner at the same time in the same place. Well talking to one another, not watching the tele.

SPEAKER_03: 16:08

Well, yeah, exactly. Well that's the other thing, isn't it? I mean, you if you go out to a restaurant, how many times do you and I see, and this is the thing I find bizarre, I see mother and father and child, they're all on a phone tapping and nobody having a chance. We do the same, though.

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

We've sat at home on opposite ends of the settee and sent each other a message. It's almost I know, and again it's a habit, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04: 16:29

But yeah, but that haven't quite gone that far, but it's definitely the spice.

SPEAKER_03: 16:35

Again, you send a message upstairs to somebody upstairs because I don't want to get up and go and see them, but but ultimately, uh yeah, I think I I am concerned about where all of this is going.

SPEAKER_00: 16:47

Me too.

SPEAKER_03: 16:48

Um, and I say that when I say it, I know my my my children who are you know that they're in their 30s, they look at me and think stupid woman, but I am I I'm not a stupid woman. Well I am on that point, they are absolutely right. But where this is all going, you know, and and I you hear um there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment um uh about um uh asylum seekers, and then people, you know, there's the whole thing with the government and they're you know having the argument about whether people can go and stay in the hotel, they can go in the hotel or they can't, and all of this. But it seems to be creating lots of other stuff in the background, and for me, I just feel it's it's very similar, and I hate to say it, but it's very similar to when we had pre- you know, back in pre-war days, yeah. Back in Germany, yeah, a lot of disenfranchised people who are seeming to get caught up in a in a wave of great promises, and and for me, I think some of the things that are being talked about, if they were actually followed through in the way that they are they are we are being led to believe that we call that money money going back to the NHS from the double decker bus. Well, yeah, it would be fantastic, wouldn't it, Jack? Well, unfortunately, I've been around long enough to know that often that's only the tip of the iceberg, and what they're saying is not actually what's gonna happen. We're just tiny bars what's gonna happen, what is gonna what is in reality, what is really gonna happen, that's the bit we ought to be worried about because we have no idea what that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00: 18:26

And these things are all distractions, aren't they? Exactly. Absolutely. And this is this is also burger moments. Totally, but isn't this also what adds to the to the bullying? And I know we've kind of gone into the the people just throwing shit out, which is is still a form of bullying because there are still people at the end of that. It's not quite the same as an individual being targeted, but it is still there. Now we have the internet, we know that particularly where politics is involved, even if it's um politics involved behind the scenes, and not obviously, we know there are all kinds of stories being sewn and all kinds of emotions deliberately being poked, and that there are going to be a group of people out there who want us to be divided. United we stand, divided we fall, and we're all falling for it.

SPEAKER_04: 19:09

And as soon as that happens, then that kindness aspect, which resides in all of us, I firmly believe that, yes, just goes out the window because suddenly it's not you know that's part of who I think believe we are, the best of us is that kindness, is that ability to relate to somebody else and to connect with somebody else and have discussions, open discussions, debate openly. You know, somebody can have a different view, but actually you can still love them at the end of that and have respect for them in every way, and we've lost that, haven't we? We've l and all the time we have all this going on, it's a huge distraction that takes us away from that real human ability to be kind to somebody else.

SPEAKER_00: 19:45

Of course, that only works when both parties are willing to hold on to that ideal of still respecting one another and celebrating the similarities and learning from the differences. And I've I've talked about it a lot because for me it's one of the most extreme uh examples I can think of, you know, where I've I'm I'm anti-hunting and I've sat across the table from someone who is pro-fox hunting, and we've both literally just said, so tell me why you believe this, tell me why you believe that. And there was there was no intention other than to understand one another at a deeper level. I still disagree, she probably is still agrees, but at least now we understand where those views are coming from, and with that level of understanding we can then still uh bring about more compassion. Because one element of someone's beliefs did not define them, you know. It's it's that old saying, isn't it, that you if you spend time with an individual, we can all find something good about everyone. If you find the most in air quotes evil person from history, you'd be able to find one thing about them that was good or that that that aligned with your views, whether it's how they loved their kids or looked after their grandkids or remembered to feed their dog regularly, we you'd find something.

SPEAKER_04: 20:59

But it's almost like we don't want to that maybe there was a part of us that wanted to search for that and we've lost that. We've lost that willingness to look into something, you know, in that way. Does that make sense? Would you agree?

SPEAKER_03: 21:11

Well, uh yeah, I would actually it it reminds me of something. One of the things that I work with is grief, and one of the methodologies I use is something called the grief recovery method. Okay, and part of that is about reconciliation, and actually, um, often within these things, you you you often focus people will focus on that negative relationship. Yeah, but one of the teachings within that is actually to accept if you only accept that one percent of that situation, how negative it was, that one percent of that was yours. Own the fact that one percent of that not working well was yours, your part, even though you might believe that 99% of it was some, and when you at least have that one percent, you've got a basis to work on. And I starts to ask. And I think that's I think that's what's been lost.

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

It's so similar to some of the medicine teachings that we carried forward as well, isn't it? This whole idea of responsibility. And I remember my teacher, Chris Lutters, I've worked with many, but I've said before he's I consider him one of the greatest teachers I've ever had. And he used to talk about, you know, we all have the ability to respond appropriately to any given situation, responsibility. But until we take ownership, until we take responsibility, which is not the same as victim blaming, keep people get ri really get themselves tied up in knots over that, until we take responsibility for our part in things, we can't change anything, whether that's grieving or whether it's even a relationship. You know, Ash and I run quite a lot of events where we have many people in in the same room when we look at our circles, for instance, you know, they're going on for 13 months and three years, they're they're long old training programs with 20 plus people in them. And every now and then you'll get some clashing personalities. And one of the kind of core tenants that tenants that we set down at the beginning is that if somebody is getting on your tits, rather than a medical phrase. Yeah, rather than just getting pissy about it, go to them, step into your kind of chief state, into your higher self, into that place of responsibility, and go and speak to them equal for equal to equal and just say, Look, this this is coming up for me. Can we have a chat? We might be might be able to work out why. I might you might be feeling the same way about me, but ultimately we've been put into this position together. So what are we here to learn from one another? How can we grow from it? And when you approach it in that way, it turns it on its head.

SPEAKER_04: 23:36

Always something beautiful comes out of that, doesn't it? And that relationship is stronger for it. And even recently, we had that quite recently, I did, didn't I? Where I something had come up for me with something that somebody else had said, and instead of going to that person, I just sat with it and I said, and that was not a good place to be. And of course, then you know, brain kicks in and it's like, oh, it could be this, it could be that. I'm in that place of drama, and actually, what I need to do is go and have that conversation with that person, and it was challenging and it was difficult at times, but what came from that was just this closeness with this other person that we had that discussion with. So it was good for me because she was sensing that something was not right with us, and we had that discussion, and to come out of that was absolutely beautiful. So I think when we do step up and step in and step through things like that, the uh the you know the results are be are wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 24:25

Yeah, and it's that you know, if uh look at the way you're speaking to someone or about someone online where you're assuming they're not gonna see it. How would you feel if someone was saying that same thing or using that same tone or energy against your daughter, your son, your wife, your husband, you your mother. How would you feel if that that kind of language and energy was being meted out against someone that you cared about?

SPEAKER_03: 24:50

I think the other thing in that is it's it's again it it i is around self-talk. Yeah, absolutely. We're our own worst bullies. If you look in the mirror, yeah. We oh look at my squash nose, look at this eyebrow, and we say things about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01: 25:06

But never noticed a nose and eyebrow before she's a son, isn't she honestly? But we say things, don't we?

SPEAKER_03: 25:14

We say things about ourselves that actually most of us wouldn't say to somebody else, and yet that seems to have got worse with the life. We are with the with the uh certainly with social media, we are finding and seeing that people are saying things that typically they probably would never say face to face, but they're sat online because it's it's okay. It's almost like all bits are off.

SPEAKER_00: 25:36

Well, some of that with the self-talk is going to be because they're trying to compare themselves to heavily airbrushed and A-I'd photographs.

SPEAKER_04: 25:42

But I can remember a time when I was in the depths of my depression before I started seeing a counselor or a therapist, and one of the things was I'd you'd say to me, You'd you'd say, you know, just bring attention to that, you know, would you talk to somebody else like that? And I'd say, Well, say I'm saving them a job, I'm getting in there first. Yeah. And that whole lack of trust in others and that you know, belief that there's there's no kindness in the world because I'm beating myself up, so therefore, it means that nobody else is gonna step in and and help, which is rubbish. But you first of all you've got to make that decision to actually ask for that help. Yeah. And how can you do that if you're not feeling that you're surrounded in that place of kindness and love?

SPEAKER_00: 26:18

Particularly if people are backing up your opinion about yourself, even if you haven't voiced it to you.

SPEAKER_03: 26:22

Yeah, so it's uh so it comes back to self-love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you if you can't, if you don't love yourself, yeah, how the hell are you gonna love other people? Yeah, and I think kindness comes from love.

SPEAKER_00: 26:34

Yeah, yeah.

unknown: 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:36

Me too. I think so too. We were having a conversation earlier about some of some of the the programmes and the the teachings that you carry, Julia, so similar to some of some of those that we we we carry. We were talking a little bit about kind of archetypal elements earlier without going into all the all the the kind of the the deep elements of it. But one of the things we were all agreeing with is that sometimes when we feel that we haven't had a voice, when we're in one of those situations where to be in the healthy element is about kind of keeping balance and not tipping down to either side of the knife edge, as it were. We're we'll walk those tightropes so often. When we feel that when we've fallen down either side of that tightrope and we feel that we don't have a voice or we can't speak out, we tend to suppress, don't we, all of the the negativity that we're feeling, or what what might otherwise display is passion and vava voom and joy for life. If our sit if our circumstances don't allow for that, we push everything down and that energy has to go somewhere. And nine times out of ten, it it it turns into something far more poisonous than it needs to be. If energy can't get out, it will transmute. So how much of the of what we're seeing as as bullying, whether it's people bullying an individual, or whether it's people bullying or speaking unkindly about a group of people, or you know, faceless in air quotes celebrity, how much of that is because we are disenfranchised in our own lives and that's just our own self-loathing, trapped energy, stale oh whatever, trying to get out. Is it j that we're just is it our own energy being trapped and transmuting into something negative because there's no other way for it to escape? Possibly. I've never really thought about it like that. Me neither.

SPEAKER_03: 28:21

I suppose I I it could be. Yeah. Interesting. It's got to go somewhere, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_04: 28:27

It's got to go somewhere, hasn't it? That energy has got to go somewhere. And I I think one of the things I still wonder about that with the whole kind of MS diagnosis for me and how much of that was over years, yeah, there was like layers, building layers without me being aware of that, yeah, not dealing with what was coming up for me, just keeping it all in, and of course, it needed to go somewhere, and it actually, you know, if you think it's something like MS is where the body attacks itself, oh goodness me, what a message there, isn't there? If you look at that kind of thing. So the same with the UVIS I've been going through body attacking itself. So, what's going on for us in that moment for that to display in that way?

SPEAKER_03: 29:01

No, I'm I'm you know, I'm one of those greedy people. I've got two old two two autoimmune conditions, both of one of is fibromyalgia, we know, which is associated with chronic pain. Yeah, and when I was in the midst of you know um a um an abusive relationship, um my pain was off the scale. Yeah. Now at the time I didn't correlate the two, yeah. It's only been since I've come out of that and changed my life, I you know, and all of those things. If someone says to me now, you know, if I see that written down I have fibromyalgia, I have to pinch myself to remind myself because actually I don't actually feel like I have fibromyalgia anymore because all of that stuff that was associated with that, which I'm sure was all of my body, what you said. The body keeps the score and all that, yes. Absolutely. But I don't have that now. I'm not saying I never have it, but it it's very rare now compared to what it was when all of that was really difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:56

So does that mean that now, if it makes itself clear, is that it

SPEAKER_03: 30:00

uh evident is that kind of a a a flag to you of oh I need to pay attention to that so it's so it's a signpost definitely I feel exactly the same I had that recently didn't I where had some of the symptoms coming up again so right what's going on around me and for me at the moment what do I need to look at and it was a huge yeah a huge flag to say right pay attention come on this I have um sometimes I used to have it a lot that what I call that hitting the wall tiredness yeah where you're doing what you're doing it could be anything and all of a sudden you have this overwhelming tiredness that you know the only thing you can do is actually go to sleep right there and then it might not be for a long time it might only be for half an hour or whatever but you've got to do that um I was having that a lot yeah I don't have it very often now but when I do I'm like okay what's going on here because I know that that is the the start of could be the start of of you know of an episode that I don't want to be around for a long you know the episode to last long.

SPEAKER_00: 30:55

When we look at all of the the labels and conditions that are now flying around that hit people particularly in terms of that exhaustion because it's the it's the same with ADHD when you run out of spoons it's just like there is nothing left but it's fascinating isn't it that more and more of us are now being aware of that and that we've got to a point where we can't ignore that anymore and I I don't necessarily think it's just that our you know the generations before us had better coping mechanisms because I know that if I run out of dopamine it's it's exactly what you just said it's it's it's I'm I'm on a cliff face and I'm falling there is nothing left so I don't think that we're necessarily um being more dramatic than the generations before us but I think what's happening with our world now is we're piling more and more and more in the the same with with information and and and and social media and everything flooding our systems we're trying to take in way more than our bodies and our brains were ever designed for.

SPEAKER_04: 31:57

Absolutely I agree totally with that. That's called my that's my piccadilly circus moment. I say yeah so one of the things that I struggle with if I'm not in a good place is going somewhere like London busy for and that part of London is very busy. Yeah and it's you know you've got all the big screens and there's something going on over there and over there and there's loads of people and tourists and all sorts of things and billboards and our brains are busy enough with much and I think sometimes we miss those moments in our life when actually we're getting that but we just haven't got that awareness. So with that in mind if this whole episode is all about kindness I'd ask both of you I think what would be the first steps you can take towards being kind to yourself because we can talk that a lot of us I include myself in that this is why I'm asking for my own benefit as much as the rest of the listeners what can we do to make sure that we are being kind to ourselves every day.

SPEAKER_00: 32:44

Do you want to go first Julie?

SPEAKER_03: 32:46

One of the things that I for me is a biggie is stepping away from the phone and social media and I know when you run your own business in some ways that feels country you can't you can't do that but actually um for me it I feel it's too much noise and and I I have to shut myself away from it otherwise I just feel bombarded and I can actually feel myself tensing up. Yeah um so so that's the biggie for me is stepping away taking that time to actually do that um and maybe you know um having select times of the day where you use your phone or you use social media um and I feel it is something and my if my children are listening to this they will laugh and go oh she never does that but actually I do do it probably much more than they think I do.

SPEAKER_04: 33:33

Yeah so what would you fill that time with instead what makes you happy and being kind to yourself what would that look like well I have a guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_03: 33:41

Oh do tell you well it it's um I actually um if I have half an hour a day um I actually um I I used to watch all the soaps back in the day um I don't now but I still actually do follow EastEnders so I would watch exactly that and yes I know it's the clums and I know all of those things but it is an escapism thing and actually they do actually sometimes have some really good storylines on there too but um I I like doing that um I love going outside for a walk just even going out and sitting in the garden you know with a cup of coffee and just being outside and now I have got two Bengal cats and they are beautiful crazy monsters and actually I can just sit I could watch them for hours they just just and to stroke them yeah just feels like coming home.

SPEAKER_04: 34:35

Oh they're gorgeous I love that yeah pets are wonderful for our mental health aren't they absolutely and helping us to chill out they know how to be kind to themselves right they do especially with cats cats do don't they absolutely do but mine have a tendency to come and bite you on the ankles when you're not you're not quite that's probably that's still being kind to them maybe they enjoy that's how they get their kicks is actually biting their owner on the ankles I think they do maybe if we could reach the places that cats manage to reach on themselves we'd be able to de-stress far more reasonably well maybe we can that's definitely not quite there.

SPEAKER_00: 35:05

That's definitely another podcast for another day isn't it maybe that's the after dark edition what about you Tus um just picking up on what Julie was saying about social media I know that I am terrible at switching. I'll tell everybody else to do it true story but I know that if I need to switch off I delete the apps. So they're still on the phone but I delete them from the desktop so we'll have we'll have been and come back by the time this comes out but we've got a a trip coming up that's part business part pleasure and I know that for that for those couple of weeks I will remove the apps from the desktop because pure muscle memory I will pick up my phone and my thumb will immediately go to my social media folder or I'll pick it up in the mornings and immediately go to tap the email. So the emails will be off and it will be you know out of office will be on out of office will be on on on LinkedIn as well um D, my our our our kind of um how do we refer to D our right hand?

SPEAKER_04: 36:04

Oh she's that and more she's amazing. Yeah our saviour of the business yeah she's done helped us out so much hasn't she when you were pouring with your eye she was brilliant yeah V VA doesn't even cut it um but she'll be there as an as an emergency contact and everything else will literally be deleted.

SPEAKER_00: 36:21

So I can go and find it if I need to but it's not immediately there and I guarantee there'll be a few days where I'll keep picking up the phone and hitting it in the place where it should be and there'll be nothing there.

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

It's interesting you say that um one of my daughters actually has uh you know social media accounts and she actually shared something with me the other day that I didn't know she said I go in I use it and then I delete it. Yeah otherwise she said I'll come back every couple of days and put it back on and spend half an hour or an hour and then I delete it again.

SPEAKER_00: 36:50

Otherwise she said I'm in it constantly but things like brick are taking off so much aren't there so they're devices that block you using it with within a certain time but what does that say about us as as a people we've got to buy an extra device to stop us from going onto our device. Well because it taps into the addiction it does of course because it's it's dopamine.

SPEAKER_04: 37:10

Yeah and you can bring on what you think is like 15 minutes can be two hours which is again with the with the whole ADHD thing that's hard enough as it is yeah yeah I've got three minutes before I need to go and catch that train of course I can go and decorate the spare room can you not leave three spare rooms at least of course of course I can so what how else could how can you be kind to yourself then what's your going forward how can you be kinder to yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 37:33

I love a nanonap. I bloody love a nanonap and I know there are there were times earlier in in in our relationship Ash where you'd really struggle if I needed a nanonap because that's what old people do. They take the beds when they're ill. That's what I grew up with that's what I heard again and again from my you know I remember um when I had my 50th birthday you booked us a tree house and it was in the middle of nowhere and from the outside it was kind of mm but you go in it's like wow and they had the biggest bed and it was surrounded by just glass there were windows everywhere you could see the tree above you there were deer in the fields that way something else that way and I'd just go I'll be back in a minute. There's a little pond whatever it's and I'd just putter off to the bedroom and I'd sprawl out make bed angels and then I'd start by looking at the tree or the deer and I'd I bloody love it. Nothing like it's amazing and I I could never understand my dad doing that so all he did was sit in front of the telly and sleep or it felt that way.

SPEAKER_03: 38:31

Yeah and now I love all that and your dad used to watch your television through his closed eyelids well yes he did my dad did because whenever he used to get up and turn it over because it was in the days before the remote control he would open his eyes I was watching that and I'd be like how you've been snoring for the last half an hour you see that's also one of our superpowers that we don't talk about the three of us are the original remote controls.

SPEAKER_00: 38:54

Yes true story again more true story in fact we might have to we we might have had to go and walk over to the big telebox and turn a dial to find the channel I know I'm under the new but it wasn't dials it was buttons it was pressing buttons I had a dial the first television I think for the for a volume no I had a the first TV I had for my bedroom was a little black and white TV and there was a dial in you had to turn it round like you do the radio to find the channel vaguely because you had a portable telly though didn't you a little one so therefore see that's the difference.

SPEAKER_04: 39:30

You were posh though because you had that as well as a big telly we just had a big telly I had a portable TV but in the bedroom deprived did you have a video in your bedroom video player?

SPEAKER_03: 39:40

No I did look when I was a teenager actually child yeah yeah so was I I think do you think that has something to do with it might do but then I was in effect because my sister had moved out when I was ten so I kind of were from the age of so I did get spoiled it's actually just because your parents didn't love you as much as mine and Jules loved us. Be kind I'm kind you see I'm being with kindness what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04: 40:04

See how I brought that round there listeners. I wanted to just mention what you know being kind to myself is it is reading a good book with a big never ending pot of tea and ideally outside somewhere sitting on the swing seat in our back garden on a nice spring day or something I don't want it too hot sitting there letting the dogs run around and just that's bliss for me. It's just lovely. No phones no phones.

SPEAKER_00: 40:26

Although in reality you'll sit out there and get annoyed at the dogs barking because you're worried about the neighbours.

SPEAKER_04: 40:31

Yeah that's sure alright that's broken that then hasn't it? There's no secrets on this show.

SPEAKER_00: 40:35

No s no secrets at all now remember Taz just be kind okay I am being kind so just quickly before we wrap up we were just talking about us being the original TV remotes I think the difference when we were kids is that if we were going to speak to a friend after school it would be I'll ring you after neighbours and you'd sit on the stairs pulling the cord as far as you can pull the curly cord as far as you could with the dial phone. I can hear that just the thought of it and the dick Yeah and sometimes it would hurt your finger sticking anyway. But we didn't have the mobiles and you know speak to a younger person at the ID what do you mean you didn't have mobiles? What? But at least then I was bullied at school but I could come home and at least park it till the next day get out on my roller skates or on the bike. Yeah. There was no way unless they were going to come and knock on my door or again ring only after neighbours.

SPEAKER_03: 41:35

Fortunately with a mother like mine who would have threatened to throw a bucket of water over them which she did whether they were friend or foe who came to the door I wouldn't have had them coming to the door. So that you say again you get away from it.

SPEAKER_04: 41:47

You do don't you there's no way for kids to get away from it. And we also had all that I used to enjoy it anybody else do it I had quite a long walk to school but I used to like that because that was more time with my friends so we'd be chatting we'd stop in the sweet shop on the way home we'd have an ice cream we'd have a chat we'd sit and have a drink on the way home sit on the bench and talk for half an hour and you know you were told you've got to be in for tea at five or five thirty but you know obviously there's a lot of time for that so we used to stop sometimes and just have a good old conversation and now there was no talk of no phone to kind of distract me from being in the moment with those p with those individuals.

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

How on earth are we supposed to create a society where we do have more kindness when our young people well actually no not just our young people adults who are being bullied there is now no escape of it with from it because it follows you on those little boxes that we tend to live in. Yeah our phones they're attached to us for I think for most people in the modern day phones are pretty much surgically attached to our hands. So the bullying is coming everywhere with us. So I don't know what the answer is but I would love everybody to just be aware and again whenever Caroline flak is mentioned you get the flood of be kind, be kind hashtags but what about for the rest of the year? What happens then? What happens when somebody is so low and has been having flak from no pun intended from society or from individuals whether for who they are for what they represent and they do then check out. It's very very easy for people to say be kind but in the next breath they're joining in.

SPEAKER_04: 43:22

Yeah let the actions speak.

SPEAKER_00: 43:23

I mean it was only last year we lost a friend of ours um to to suicide who was trans and had been unhappy for a long time but I know a lot of that unhappiness came from the the weight of opinion against them and you can't blame it just on that but we all I bet we will all know someone or know of someone who has either who has either taken their own life or tried to or thought about it or who has just been terribly terribly depressed or had a breakdown or burnout because of the way they perceive the world is treating them or the way the world actually is treating them. And again I go back to that point I made earlier. What if somebody was treating your loved ones in that way? What would change?

SPEAKER_04: 44:07

So please always if that's you anybody listening please reach out for help. Sometimes that's the hardest thing to do right so but there are organisations and friends family there that want to help don't suffer in silence. I know that's a bit become a bit of a cliche but so important that we keep keep talking. But say it kindly say it with love.

SPEAKER_00: 44:26

As you said love and kindness go together like that beautiful partnership but sometimes and if you find you're one of the people being a keyboard warrior can I just ask that you pause before typing your angry thoughts and just ask yourself what is my intention here? Taking this all the way forward what do I actually want to happen? What do I want to see the r the result of this being 'cause think about that and you might decide that you don't want to send that message or that video or that meme or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03: 44:57

I think one of the things I will say is this stuff is immediate. Yeah actually if you do have a response um why don't you sit on it for 24 hours before you send it the chances are the response that you're gonna send 24 hours later will not be as unkind as the one that you were going to send immediately in the moment. Yeah yeah yeah thank you thank you so Julie closing thoughts from you well for me kindness is a value it really is in my core um I personally feel that if you can't say something nice then as um thumper said thumper that's it thumper don't say anything at all yeah that's lovely I love that and that's what I've taught my children and uh if something gets said a little bit untoward in the family which does happen sometimes usually one of them will say we'll say it so yeah that's what I try to live by.

SPEAKER_00: 45:53

I have a bummer jacket with a big cutout of thumper on the back that I use for exactly that message isn't that messaging talks. Just flip round and everybody remembers that one. Asher what about you?

SPEAKER_04: 46:03

Fine simple for once I'm not gonna wax lyrical but lead lead always lead from a place of love and kindness whenever you can and as you said just stop if you're in danger of saying something that you're gonna regret or that could hurt hurt somebody else please just stop and consider that but leave with love and kindness you can't go wrong with that.

SPEAKER_00: 46:22

Yeah absolutely I'd just remind everyone that kindness is not just a hashtag definitely. Okay so until next time feel free to join in if you'd like to Julie well see you next Tuesday the only reason we do this on Tuesday.

SPEAKER_04: 46:44

That was good you've been listening to awesome new off topic follow or subscribe to make sure you don't miss the next one we're Ashley Walter and Taz Thornton and we'll be back soon