🎙️ Episode 23: Why Does St George Have Blue Eyes Now?

They’ve done their research and they’re on their soapboxes. Taz and Asha talk patriotism, flags and not-so-hidden agendas. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:02

Welcome to the Autumn Layoff Topic, the podcast that refuses to stay in its line. We're after Anna, ex-journalists, now coaches, creators and chaos embracing business owners. Each episode we'll dive into the world of books, branding, visibility, content, business, and wherever else our ADHD brings taken. This is unfiltered, unscripted, occasionally unhinged, and totally up.

SPEAKER_02: 0:29

Ash, we've done 23 of these episodes. Well, this is the 23rd one. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01: 0:34

Good go, innit?

SPEAKER_02: 0:37

That has officially put us into the top 1% of podcasters once we hit episode 21. Because most people fall off within about the first couple of episodes.

SPEAKER_01: 0:49

I love it. I love it. I love what we're learning about it as we go. Um and some of the feedback we've had from people and conversations and really, really good. So yeah, it's cool. I'm really happy about it. Are you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00

Yeah, I I love that we've been able to reassure so many people that they can go and launch podcasts just since we started this. Because again, remember going right back to the beginnings, one of the reasons we wanted to do this really kind of lo-fi. Uh so low budget, low tech, hardly any computer.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

We're literally low knowledge.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16

No knowledge.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18

I think we've got a bit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19

We've got a little bit. More than we did have. We're literally still sitting here on my backbook air with a snowball microphone plugged in. That's it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27

And a Pepsi Max and a Pepsi Max. Pop you don't burp or me. I'm switch I've switched to water now, so very sensible, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it it's it's been really good to be able to use this as an example of how anybody can go and create a podcast to make it happen.

SPEAKER_01: 1:41

Yeah. Why wait?

SPEAKER_02: 1:43

Yeah, and it just needs a bit of planning. We're making sure that we always stay ompteen episodes ahead. So for instance, this episode um is due to go live on November the 18th, 2025.

SPEAKER_01: 1:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:55

But we're recording it on August the No September.

SPEAKER_01: 2:00

September the 5th. Yeah. So we're kind of two months ahead, aren't we? Over two months ahead. But to be honest, that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02: 2:06

No, it isn't. And for anyone out there thinking that you want to run a podcast, then I would always say keep a few episodes in the bag. Keep at least half a dozen episodes in the bag if you can, so that if anything happens, you've got them stacked up. Never try and do it just week to week and be I was gonna say running on a shoestring, but that's not the right phrase.

SPEAKER_01: 2:25

No, I know what you mean. But yeah, just be plan ahead, be ahead of yourself. You know, it goes back to this. Don't be doing it by the seat of your pants.

unknown: 2:31

No.

SPEAKER_02: 2:32

Anyway, today's episode. Why on earth, Asher, have we called this episode Why does St George have blue eyes now?

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

Oh goodness me, where do we start with this one? I mean, through history, St George has been depicted um sometimes on a steed waving the the flag of St George or the Yeah, that red and white flag. And at the moment, as we were stabbing the dragon. Stabbing the poor dragon. Poor dragon. Team Dragon. No, Team Dragon all the way. Um, but why are we saying talking about this now? Because we got into this conversation and asked that question because we're seeing flags all over the UK at the moment, um particularly flags of St. George.

SPEAKER_02: 3:14

And again, remember that we recorded this back in September, so there's a great big march coming up next week next week, which will have been done and dusted by the time you hear this. But it's still, you know, as we're both former journalists, it stirred a lot up in us, and particularly as St George wasn't English, never set foot in England, and yet, as we see images of St George, as you know, the crusading knight on his white steed, very often slaying the dragon, he's got very, very pale skin. Now we've kind of been a bit tongue-in-cheek with the with the blue eyes, because you can rarely see his eyes clear enough in art um to see what colour they are. Very often you've got the the helmet over his face, which is is you know um is helpful, I guess, for for the people at the time creating that art, because of course he wouldn't have been white. Um St George was was from a place that's that's part of modern day Turkey now, and he in fact never set foot in England, and he was certainly never even alive during any of the crusades. And if we if we trace that back, we can see that the image of of St George was quite cleverly co-opted into the Crusades.

SPEAKER_01: 4:33

Ash, did you know that? Well, tell me more. I I I love history, but I'm always learning. But I know some of the stuff when we were doing a research for this particular podcast. Yeah, there was loads of stuff that I'm I was learning about. So tell me what you've learned.

SPEAKER_02: 4:45

Um, so St George himself was a Roman soldier from about the the third to the fourth century. Yeah. Um and he was in fact martyred for refusing to give up his faith and denounce Christianity. And you know, we can go into all the the history of what was going on with Christianity at the time and coming in and kicking out all the poor pagans. Let's not go there today. Yeah, let's not go there.

SPEAKER_01: 5:07

That's not what we're talking about today, Dad. Stay on track. Please do. Please do.

SPEAKER_02: 5:11

But he had been dead. Poor old George, R. I. P. George. Georgie had been dead for hundreds of years before the first crusade kicked off in 1096.

SPEAKER_01: 5:24

Well, you have done your haven't you? You've done your homework. I'm impressed. Because I know that I have to say, just as a slight aside here, I don't think history was your favourite subject at school. So how far have you travelled since then?

SPEAKER_02: 5:35

I think that's because I took social history, which was all about the Industrial Revolution and spinning Jennies and Esenberg, Kingdom, Brunei, and just didn't light your fire. No, all about dividing up fields and stuff and but anyway, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 5:52

So you're learning a lot about St George.

SPEAKER_02: 5:55

Yeah, and again, I I'm no historian, so if any historians are listening to this and have anything else to add, please do. Please do send us some comments. We we'd love to to hear more about this and explore it further. And again, what does this have to do with you know business and books and marketing and brand? Well, actually, this is a really, really important story when it comes to brand. Particularly, again, if you go back to what St George would have looked like originally. Dark hair, dark eyes, olive skin, and he's gradually been transformed into this crusading white knight who had nothing to do with England, United Kingdom, any of that. And you know, the the the whole St. George's Cross as well. Didn't wear that. He never wore that.

SPEAKER_01: 6:42

So I actually said at the beginning, didn't I? That, you know, he's depicted, sometimes he is depicted with that. I know we've modernised it, but even with that, we've got him with the great St. George's flag.

SPEAKER_02: 6:51

And wearing it, of course, on the the I want to say tabard. I'm not sure that's what I'm saying. Anybody remember the big breakfast? Woman in a tabard, ooh, bah yeah, yeah, generation.

SPEAKER_01: 7:04

Okay, we're doing it again. We're glitching Taz.

SPEAKER_02: 7:06

We're glitching, we're glitching. So anyway, so the Crusades, um 1098, and some of the how do we put this? The people who were in charge of writing down and documenting what would become the history of the Crusades at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 7:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 7:23

Um The reporters of their day? The reporters of their day. The reporters of their day who were under some level level of political sway, one might argue.

SPEAKER_01: 7:33

Is there a similarity perhaps now? Oh there's another concept.

SPEAKER_02: 7:38

There's another day.

SPEAKER_01: 7:40

But yeah, oh, some I'm seeing some similarities.

SPEAKER_02: 7:42

And we must not confuse this idea that there is political skew behind the media with the idea of freedom of speech, which again and freedom of the press, which is massively, massively important. Yes, there's too much political sway in the media now, but also freedom of the press is massively, massively important. Crucial. If we if we lose that, we lose democracy as we know it. Anyway, so um the people who were chronicling the history of the crusades who were quite high up in the church, capital T, capital C.

SPEAKER_01: 8:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 8:16

And let's remember that the church was far more uh involved in the governance of the country back then than it is now. They started reporting that saints were appearing in visions to inspire the crusaders.

SPEAKER_01: 8:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 8:38

Now remember that George did actually was was actually killed for refusing to denounce Christianity, so of course he was then martyred. Among the saints that the the the scholars and the people in power were saying were were appearing in visions to the crusaders to inspire them, to inspire the people in the armies, one of them was St. George, who appeared in shining white, and that eventually became the white background of the flag with the red cross to represent Christianity. I'm not going to go into what the red might represent because you know, I've got a lovely visual of him slightly sort of almost head to shoulder, and just kind of the the breeze flowing through his hair and you know galloping on his steed.

SPEAKER_01: 9:24

Okay, I'm there.

SPEAKER_02: 9:25

But also, why St. George? Because they also reported that that that some other saints, such as uh Saint Demetrius and uh Saint Mercurius also appeared. Okay. So why we plucked a bloke from Turkey? Well, ultimately. I love you, I love you the way you describe these as go on, yeah, okay. A bloke from Turkey. So the the thing to remember, remember we're talking about the importance of brand here. Again, it's important to remember. What are we talking about brand? This yeah, we we just said this is a brilliant example of brand and how it's used. St. George is a brand. Yeah, okay. St. George is a very strong. And it's a brand that has been manipulated and warped to suit a particular purpose that has no bearing on actual fact. So it wasn't random gossip, this whole idea that that that that George and his and his mates, George and Demi and Murky, or murky the murky history of St. George. Yeah. Um, it was not random gossip. These accounts came from from the clerics and the leaders who were tied to the campaign. Remember, I keep banging on about this, the people writing what was to become the official history of the campaign, and yes, it was very much a campaign, very much a political campaign. So some of the most important Christian voices of the time were actively saying, George rode with us. George had been.

SPEAKER_01: 11:00

It's very bojo, isn't it? Yeah. It is the bojo of our times. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:07

That was shut you up, isn't it? Well, I'm just thinking, you know, um I was thinking You can hear the cogs. Could you? Yeah. Could you hear the the kind of the St. George version of um stay at home, save lives? Support the NHS.

SPEAKER_01: 11:22

Go out there and go to war. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:25

Anyway, go on. Join the army, save lives, slay the people whose country we're born.

SPEAKER_01: 11:30

And the dragon.

SPEAKER_02: 11:31

Yeah. And the dragon that didn't know. We believe in dragons, but we don't believe.

SPEAKER_01: 11:34

I'd be bang I'd be banging my pots and pants for the dragon.

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

I'd be banging my pots and pants for the dragon, absolutely. Definitely. So, anyway, back in the day, these stories worked as propaganda. They told exhausted, starving, probably terrified soldiers that heaven itself was on their side. It's almost like the, you know, an historical version of putting some big load of bollocks about the NHS and money on the side of a giant double deck of books. There's an idea.

SPEAKER_01: 12:02

That would work then, mightn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 12:05

Anyway, so um that in itself, this idea that this this George the Saint in with with his Tabard tea tail draped over his chest. Georgie in the Tabard. Ooh, bubba, sleep the dragon, sleeve the dragon. That essentially reassured all the people back home that the crusades were divinely blessed. Divinely blessed. How is this? How's that for a story of Brand? So again, in reality, George never fought in the Crusades. Right. His name and his image were co-opted during them. And these I know. And these vision stories gave him this new role as the heavenly knight, which is why he became so tied up with the Crusader banners, England's patronage, and eventually the red red and white cross flag. In fact, wow, what story. That's where that cross flag came from, isn't it? Well, and again, without going into too much detail, he's not the only historical figure who has essentially been Europeanised and whitewashed. Can we think of any perhaps Galilean Jews? There's a particular Galilean Jew who would also have had dark hair and dark eyes. Never had blue eyes and probably never came this far. Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, the Jesus that we think of, who appears so so beautifully in in stained glass windows and in Western art, the blonde, blue-eyed.

SPEAKER_01: 13:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 13:42

Perfect Perfection. Perfect the perfect idea of an Arian. Um would love to have been blonde and blue-eyed. So again, going back to brand and how this has been skewed over time.

SPEAKER_01: 13:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 13:59

Way back in the days before we'd ever thought about things like marketing, marketing was there. It's been there all the time. All the time, all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 14:09

And look at what's happening again at the time of us recording this podcast. I would say though, for all the marketeers out there, we love you, um, but it does seem a bit murky marketing. It's a bit murky. There's that word again, Taz, murky marketing.

SPEAKER_02: 14:22

This was, absolutely, absolutely. So so the irony that the St George flags at the time of recording this are being painted on roundabouts and and dropped over motorway bridges. That that is being used as a as a kind of weaponized into the weaponised. I was gonna say if you didn't, because that's how it this this this symbol of again a bloke from Turkey, yeah, who never came to the UK, is being weaponised and used as uh a symbol of dare I say white power. Um used to divide. Used to divide, used to conquer, along with all of the other little bits of further and further white right, further right, further white, same thing rhetoric. Um it's a bit like how how far far right sounds an awful lot like far right, doesn't it? Um it's it's it's fascinating how it's all flooded in through. The the irony of this symbol being used is well, it's not lost on me. It lost it's not lost on me at all, you know. But but to just go back to history a little bit. Um, because remember there wasn't just one crusade. No. There were a number of crusades.

SPEAKER_01: 15:37

Quite a few. How many were there? Quite a few, weren't there, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 15:39

Oh, Crikey. Go on, historians tell me. Because I don't know. So so again, the first crusade began 1096 to 1099. Okay. Let's just let's just touch on another little bit of George history just to show of I've I've done my research here.

SPEAKER_01: 15:54

Okay, go on then. Oh, this is really good. I'm really enjoying this. Go on.

SPEAKER_02: 15:58

Um, so there again, they claimed that St. George, along with St. Demetrius and St. Mercurius, appeared in shining armour on horseback to lead the Christian forces. Remember, this was written by the scholars who probably weren't anywhere near the front lines, okay, and then given to the soldiers. Yeah, to be fair, I'm I might not be being entirely fair there. We we don't actually know whether the soldiers themselves imagined it or whether the tale was added later, but it was definitely used as this divine proof that that heaven was on the side of the crusades. Um and I suppose the difference between our two non-blue-eyed blondes we've we've talked about so far is that unlike Christ, he was depicted as the this figure of of of both peace and suffering, George was George was martial. He was he was a soldier who could be imagined fighting for the faithful, and he became this kind of supernatural poster boy. Poster boy. But this kind of supernatural general. Okay, supernatural general for the crusading armies. Thank you, thank you. I'm on it today. And to think you kept asking if I was too tired to do this.

SPEAKER_01: 17:03

I know.

SPEAKER_02: 17:04

We've lost a lot of sleep these past few weeks. Um the joy of looking after an older dog, bless you. Um so again, the white flag with the red cross was linked to George, it became the crusader emblem. Simple, striking. Think about everything we know about brand and marketing. Simple, striking, really easy to carry into battle as a sign of God's chosen army. Yeah. Keep it simple, keep it clear. So what about the dragon myth then?

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

Oh, you're gonna tell me about that as well, then I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna tell you about that. And what sort of dragon was it? That's my question. Well the last one. The last What the last everyone? Well they say. That's not true.

SPEAKER_02: 17:42

I know. There's still more dragons. I know, but the story that you were told of s uh at school of St. George slaying the dragon, what made me cry. But what was the story you were given?

SPEAKER_01: 17:54

It was the last dragon, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 17:56

Who was terrorising the villages and then in right w in rights this white knight.

SPEAKER_01: 18:01

That might have been really horrible. But think of all the other stories.

SPEAKER_02: 18:07

It might have done, or he might not have been killing people at all, or it might not have existed. That's true. But yet again, we're given a skewed version of a story in the same way, and I've talked about this before. The Icarus story. I know, but hold on, let's think about the way the way these stories are skewed and foisted upon us as children. Okay. So again, think about the one we've talked about before, the Icarus story.

SPEAKER_01: 18:25

The Icarus story, that's a really I really like this one.

SPEAKER_02: 18:27

The Icarus story, well.

SPEAKER_01: 18:28

We told this again on podcasts.

SPEAKER_02: 18:29

We have told it before, but let's just touch on it again. It's a brilliant story to keep keep remembering. The Icarus story, we're all told as children that we grow up believing is that Icarus's father, Daedalus, who crafted the the wings made from wax and feathers, warned him not to fly too close to the sun.

SPEAKER_01: 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:46

Because the sun would melt the wax and he would plunge to his death. Yeah. Which, of course, is a massive story about don't try and get above your station, keep yourself little and dumbful.

SPEAKER_01: 18:58

Fly too high.

SPEAKER_02: 18:59

Do as you're told and become part of the sausage factory that we're conditioned to become.

SPEAKER_01: 19:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 19:03

But in the original telling, Daedalus uh Icarus was also warned by his father Daedalus not to fly too low, because then the spray from the sea would come up and weight down his wings, and again he would sink to his death. We're never told to never sink too low. We're never told to to remember our worth, we're never told to, you know, to find that balance there. We're just told don't get above your station, don't fly too high. So, how many of us growing up feeling well that can't do that? I can't do it. Anyway, so back to back to back to George's. The dragon slaying tale wasn't part of those earliest traditions at all. In fact, think about the timings. That was the dragon falling down the stairs. No. It didn't have stairs.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

Did he get a bandage?

SPEAKER_02: 19:55

I'm sure he did. Okay. Yeah. And a walking stick.

SPEAKER_01: 20:00

He's looking at me if you could see the look on Taz's face. Carry on, Taz. Carry on. You're trying to be serious. Let's go back. Let's go back.

SPEAKER_02: 20:06

But if he had a walking stick. Yes. Do dragons have four legs or more than that? Or they didn't do they have two legs and two legs.

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

Oh okay, we're going off now. I'm so sorry I took this down a tangent. You did, you did. A fiery tangent. Fiery tangent.

SPEAKER_02: 20:19

So the the dragon myth actually appeared much later during the medieval period. Oh. When it just was created and dovetailed neatly with all the the previous crusader propaganda. So George killing the dragon became, and here's another beautiful word, an allegory.

SPEAKER_01: 20:36

Ooh, an allegory. Um for I thought that it used to be a car. Oh dear. That jokes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:45

That became or a metaphor for Christians defeating infidels in air quotes. Dragons equal chaos non-believers. Okay. And again, without going into the history of what a crusades were all about. Let's hear it for the dragons. Let's hear it for the dragons. Doesn't scam with the song, does it? Let's hear it for the dragons. No. Anyway, moving on. So George, of course, the the the righteous warrior who defends the faithful and rescues the oppressed.

SPEAKER_01: 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:17

Which actually means kill anybody that doesn't believe what they believe. Okay. So well, you know. Um, why did that work? Again, let's go back to the brand theory. There's an emotional hook. All good brands, good marketing campaigns need an emotional hook. Oh, definitely. The crusaders were not only promised salvation, they were told that heavenly warriors like George were literally riding alongside them. Didn't matter that they couldn't see them, they were they're there. Team George, we're on Team George. How many how many things are we we've been told today as part of this thing that sees the flags waving everywhere that don't actually exist? Um this is true, this is true, this is no, it isn't.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

The truth is I hate that phrase. I hate it, I hate it with a passion. It's become this this phrase that we trip out, usually started by politicians, and then we just go with it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:06

And my favourite and my truth may not be your truth.

SPEAKER_01: 22:08

Yeah, oh yeah, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_02: 22:10

There isn't just one truth. No. Truth is subjective. Yeah, anyway. Um, what else does a does a good marketing campaign need? It it needs a unifying banner. Are we right? Something to bring people together. Oh, definitely. So all of those different European armies needed a common identity. Okay. Some banner to to to come on to fight underneath. And George's cross that never actually existed, but that became that rallying sign.

SPEAKER_01: 22:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 22:41

Makes sense. Um, yeah. And then as a political tool, not that we're suggesting that marketing would ever be used as a political tool. Really?

SPEAKER_01: 22:51

Are we back to Bojo again?

SPEAKER_02: 22:53

Experience or Farrish to a lady. Anyway, that's not bad. So as a political tool, later monarchs, so even later, so uh Edward III of England, for instance.

SPEAKER_01: 23:04

Could you go back further now? You do and this is not bad for somebody that's not a great hist history nerd.

SPEAKER_02: 23:09

I know, I mean coming back further, I'm actually coming into more modern knowledge. No, you're okay. Let's go forward. So coming forward, um monarchs like Edward III of England really leaned on on George's crusading reputation to boost his own wars with the prestige of holy battle. Okay. So then by the 12th and the 14th centuries, 12th to the 14th centuries, Saint George was the model of a Christian knight. Okay. His image was painted on shields, on church walls, carried as relics. Yeah. He shifted from a martyr of the faith to a heavenly warlord, the kind of archetypal saint of crusading Europe. Well, there's some title, isn't it? I know it sounds sexy, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 23:51

It does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 23:52

And eventually, of course, England adopted this bloke from Turkey as the patron saint. Um, not because he had anything to do with the island originally, as we are an island, but because his crusader image made him the perfect emblem for a martial Christian kingdom. So, in essence, St George's reputation was repurposed as crusade propaganda. His real story was about steadfast for steadfast. That's not his steadfast.

SPEAKER_01: 24:24

That doesn't sound like your word.

SPEAKER_02: 24:25

It in this case it does. He was kind of a stalwart, that's not one of my words either, but it's it's it's correct. It was steadfast faith and martyrdom. Okay. But during the Crusades, he was turned into this supernatural knight, slayer of slayer of dragons, and divine patron of Christian warfare.

SPEAKER_01: 24:45

Wow, that's some type. Imagine that if you were at a networking event now and you had 30 seconds, you had to say all that. Oh, we couldn't do all that in 40 seconds. Yeah. No, you could never could, could you? You wouldn't get it all on a business card. Yeah. You wouldn't get it. No, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 24:58

And how do we get for Christian warfare? How does that tie into Love Thy Neighbour?

SPEAKER_01: 25:04

Oh. Anyway, we could we could get it. Yeah, okay, come on then.

SPEAKER_02: 25:07

So where are we going with this then, Tess? So where are we going? Let's bring it forward and then to bring it forward if we if we can recognise that initially George from Turkey never had a white emblem with a big red cross on it. Okay. That was either invo envision either envisioned or invented. Okay. To fill it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:29

To leave you to make up your mind on that. The choice is yours. The choice is yours.

SPEAKER_02: 25:36

Oh, it was blind date, wasn't it? Blind date. Oh yeah, of course. Oh bless Assilla. We love Silla. Anyway, come on. Um sorry back in the day, it was it was just created. It was a marketing campaign for to suit the political forces of the time. The political forces who were trying to come to supremacy at the time or trying to hold their supremacy at the time. Yeah. And come right forward in time to 2025. For now. To right right now, and that same emblem is being used by being weaponised. Politic. But again, think back to the original marketing campaign and that this symbol was the was the universal symbol of Christian warfare. It was a weapon. It was invented as a weaponised tool.

SPEAKER_01: 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

And now it's being weaponised again. By yet again political forces who were trying to come to supremacy, who were spreading all kinds of untruths.

SPEAKER_01: 26:35

I think the world's coming now again. First the dragon, now the people, and we're all a lot of us are just sitting taking all this. And I said to you when we were driving back from somewhere the other week and saw some St George's flags on the on a bridge coming down the motorway. And I love it. I love the Union flag. I've always loved it for years and years and years and years. I used to collect everything with the Union flag on it mugs, tea tails, all sorts of things, stationery, all sorts of stuff. Because I love it. It's a powerful image. Same with the St George's flag. But I didn't like how I was feeling about it. Because I'm proud to be British, to be um a resident of these wonderful isles, and yet I don't feel proud when I see it being used in the way it's being used in this country right now.

SPEAKER_02: 27:23

And just look at how it does not make me unpatriotic. Of course not. Just look at how quickly that image has been skewed. So, you know, we might be showing our age now, but it's in in terms of in the scheme of things, it's not that long since Joey Halle well strutted onto stress onto the stage wearing a union jack. That's such a cool dress, that isn't it? Yeah, but how would it look now? Yeah, I know. Minis?

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

Yeah, minis.

SPEAKER_02: 27:49

With the with the you know, I've got I've got union flags in my in my real lights. Yeah. I love it. But look at how quickly that's moved from the country flag that's a really cool design device in its own right. I love it. But in the same way that the London tube map is a really cool design device into something that's been weaponised. I no longer see that flag and think, yeah, that's such a gorgeous flag.

SPEAKER_01: 28:14

It was really interesting. Oh, am I safe here? Yeah, I I was watching something on TikTok the other day and there was a great young woman on there talking about she'd got a lioness's um top on, the the home top, which is red, white, and blue basically. And she was saying that she wore it to the gym. Yeah, she wore it to the gym. What else did she say?

SPEAKER_02: 28:34

And she felt like she she had to go around everyone in the gym going, I'm not racist, I just like football. I'm not racist, I just support the lionesses.

SPEAKER_01: 28:41

And I actually went out the other day with one of my England tops on, and I was having the same thing. And in fact, when I go abroad at some point, I will have that same thought. And I don't want to have that thought. I don't want to have that be the first thought that I think of when I look at my country's flag. I want to be proud, proud of the diversity of our country, the passion of our country, the creativity of our country, the beauty of our country for everybody, that we come from a mixture of races, cultures, different, all different experiences. And I want to be proud of that because for me that has always been what we are, who we are, and the stories that have come from that, all the people that have come before us and those to come afterwards. And I said only this morning, I said I'm glad I haven't got kids. I never thought I'd say that because I've always wanted children. Um wasn't to be for me this time around because for various medical reasons and just timing and everything else. But I'd be really scared if I was a parent right now. And I don't want us to feel like that. I want us to unite, not to divide and divide and conquer. You know, the Romans got something r really right there. They want to cause div they wanted to cause division, so it kept us small because we were infighting. And I worry that that's the way we're going as a country. And I don't want us to do that. We should be proud of our heritage. But that's a heritage that includes everybody. Everybody that is here and has a right to be here. Whether they've arrived many centuries ago, whether they were born here, but whoever they are that live here that have a way, maybe they've escaped a terrible situation, but they've arrived here legally, and they're here, they've gone through all the things that they need to go through. They have a right to be here, they have so much to share. They are contributing to everything in our in our lives. And I just want us to not be so judgmental with stuff because it just feels so important for us all to come together right now and not to divide and not to get angry at other people because they may have a different skin colour to us or follow a different religion and different and different ways of being within this country. But that for me is what makes us great. Yeah, it is absolutely. Sorry, I've rattled on but and prattled on and thought And breathe. I know, I just it makes me sad. I haven't actually got tears talking about that. I know, I got it. Because so I don't want, coming back to it, just like the young woman that was on TikTok the other day that I saw, I don't want to worry about wearing my England top, worrying that I'm going to be seen as a as a racist or a you know somebody that is really far right and just wants to wave a flag for you know the chance to divide and conquer. I don't want that. I want us just to all be us, in whatever way that takes the form that takes.

SPEAKER_02: 31:35

So so let's just bring this back to the point of our podcast. Let's just talk about the marketing of the brand again for a moment. And let's look at how that has evolved and the evolution. We said a few moments ago we we've very quickly moved away from, you know, when we were all embracing the the Union flag or the Union Jack. For anyone who believes the old myth that it's only a flag only the jack if it's on a ship, you're incorrect.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

Um yeah, I've been saying that for years.

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

Yeah, I've been saying it for years. I thought that was the case.

SPEAKER_01: 32:02

Yeah, obviously not. So, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 32:05

And j just for for humour's sake, yeah. Do we all remember a few years back when I think there was one of the New England strap strips came out and and we had the kind of stylized flag?

SPEAKER_01: 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:17

And Niggle Farage and his and and those of his ilk were complaining that it it shouldn't ever be stylised and it should have the traditional colours, blah blah blah. And then just in the past few weeks, again at the time of recording, they've launched their football shirt where it's just in white. Hashtag irony. Yeah, oh yes, yes, again, marketing campaign there at the time. There we go. Anyway, so let's let's look at how the union flag and the uh the and and and the the St George's Cross have evolved over time, or at least how the the way they've been portrayed and the meaning behind them and the energy and the feeling behind them has changed. So again, we in in the historical context, again, forgive me for for for you know going over and over the same remark. It feels important to keep r reminding people that so uh initially we had the crusader symbols, later they were became national and state flags, which of course, right from the beginning were meant to unify armies, kingdoms, and eventually the UK as a political union.

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 33:23

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

So Asher, what were the what are the colours of the Union flag? They are the blue and white of Scotland, the red of England, um Wales, the dragon, yeah, and Ireland.

unknown: 33:35

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 33:36

Correct?

unknown: 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Um Northern Ireland as opposed to Republic of Ireland, I believe.

SPEAKER_02: 33:42

But essentially the different colours in the flag re represent the different uh nations that sit on the.

SPEAKER_01: 33:48

I have got that right, haven't I? I'm worrying now. In case I've offended Irish people listening, apologies if I have. I think I've got to be. You have the blue and white of the salt air. Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:57

We've got Welsh and yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

Yeah, I have. Okay, cool. Phew, I thought I got it wrong then. Sorry. Brain glitch, brain glitch. So I'm just having a slurp.

SPEAKER_02: 34:05

Let's look at them from the point of view of marketing and brand. Because remember that however strong your brand is, it can be warped and it can change. Yeah, okay. You've only to give a really, really glib example, okay. When I was a kid, brands like um No Fear was a really cool skateboarding brand.

SPEAKER_01: 34:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:28

Um Kangaroos. Ruse Trainers.

SPEAKER_01: 34:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:34

Um anyway, Lonsdale. Going back now. Okay, yeah. But then those brands today, rather than clamouring to get them, they end up in the kind of reduced aisles and in places like Sports Direct.

unknown: 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

They're the ones that, mmm, I don't want to wear those. But think about how those no fear, that was another one. Think of how those brands over the years have moved from something really cool and desirable into cheapest chips, basically. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's because of the way the brand has has changed and evolved in people's feelings towards that. Anyway, that makes sense, okay. So, of course, go back to those flu the the flags again and and look at the modern adoption.

SPEAKER_01: 35:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 35:16

So over the centuries they've become kind of shorthand for shared identity. So that i.e. they're seeing everything from football matches to royal celebrations. Remember when we were at the the the Queen's Golden Jubilee? Yeah, and we had those big foam kind of. I bet anybody else got high with the brilliant weaving flag on it, we're all dressed in red white. And I remember that woman in front of us going, The Queen rules! And I was going, Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she does. Yeah, and there was and there was Brian May on the on the thingy. On the roof. On the roof at Buckingham Palace doing his thing with his big hair fabulous. Before he was all about the badgers. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:52

I know, great great badger.

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

Save the badgers.

SPEAKER_02: 35:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:56

But then again, over time it becomes skewed, and the way we start to look at it. So again, think about everything you were just saying about the way you used to feel about the flag to how you're feeling about it now.

SPEAKER_01: 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:06

And this is where we need to this this is so important, and it's such a kind of hair's breadth. The difference between national pride and nationalism. Yeah, okay. And that's where that ism that makes me. That's that's where it's falling down. The ism is the key for me. So there is a difference between celebrating our heritage. Incidentally, when we talk about our heritage, our heritage, why do we never go further back than than the Romans invading? And then the Victorians worship the Romans. Can we just remember when we go on and on and on about the Romans that that's Italy? Again. Yeah. Olive skin, dark hair, dark eyes. There is a difference between celebrating our heritage with the flags at sports tournaments and you know, royal celebrations and community events, regardless of what you think of the royals.

SPEAKER_01: 36:52

I'm going to bring the football in because I always do. But the last Lioness's match we went to, we had our flags. We became the flag, actually. We did, we became the St George's Cross. We did, because we held up the little white cards or red cards, didn't we? Imagine if we've been playing Turkey, then what? We just had a big turkey on them. No, that's the men's game. Oh, sorry, didn't say that out loud. I'm just saying, inside voice. We love the lions too.

SPEAKER_02: 37:18

So again, we need to remember there's a difference between celebrating our heritage and this this even if you look at you know the the way the the the union flag brings those nations together, it's a symbol of inclusion.

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:32

And inclusion doesn't just mean if you all happen to have the same colour skin. And we need to remember that some of the first people, the first people on our shores, initially in what has now become Great Britain and the United Kingdom, didn't have white skin. Shock. Horror.

SPEAKER_01: 37:52

We've never been a homogeneous nation.

SPEAKER_02: 37:54

Never. Anyway, anyway, I'm going off track.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

I need to leave, Taz. I need to leave now. I say that in jest to everybody.

SPEAKER_02: 38:00

Well, maybe if those buggers hadn't made it so difficult to leave with a fing stupid Brexit, we'd be able to.

SPEAKER_01: 38:05

Yeah, oh crumbs, we're going on to that one. No, this is gonna be. Back to the point, back to the point, back to the point.

SPEAKER_02: 38:10

There is a difference between celebrating our heritage with all those events and football and sports and yeah, community-based and using flags as a weapon to push an exclusionary us versus them narrative. And that's where the shift has started to go from national pride to nationalism. And then we have to think about the the far-right appropriation as well. Okay. So tell me about that. Well, groups like the the National Front, BMP, EDL, EDL that was created by Tommy Robinson. Oh, he's just misunderstood. He's grown up a lot since then. Just about free speech, in it. Ooh, guys. Oh I know. Um something just dropped down behind us. Interesting. Anyway, so National Front, BMP, EDL reform, um, and similar movements have deliberately co-opted our flags as rallying symbols. Well, actually, again, they've always been this rallying symbol to go to the room. So they jumped on the flag bandwagon, basically, haven't they? They've turned them into a visual shorthand. That's nice, then. Oh, I like that. You have been thinking about that. I have, I have, because it impacts us. We might have, you know, pale skin, but we don't fit their narrative. Because let's remember they've been turned into a shorthand for anti-immigration, anti-Muslim, anti-LGBTQIA.

SPEAKER_01: 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:31

All of those agendas. That's us, Taz.

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

That's us. Yeah. And that's scary.

SPEAKER_02: 39:36

They're political dog whistles.

SPEAKER_01: 39:39

That's um yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:41

Um we've moved from that place of seeing the flag as inclusion to displaying or inva invoking that flag in in certain contexts now, particularly the the motorways and the islands and all of that. Incidentally, I love the post you saw on Facebook earlier where somebody had dubbed uh the Red St George's Cross on some Bollards, and people had turned up with yellow and pink and turned it into a slice of Battenberg. Now there's a brilliant symbol of our country.

SPEAKER_01: 40:12

I thought that was so fabulous when they did that.

SPEAKER_02: 40:14

So but but this is this is where the marketing behind it is clever again, because it's moved from a symbol of inclusion to this kind of uh coded, this kind of coded political statement. So now it's it's it's not in in certain contexts, of course, it's not just about patriotism, but it's being aligned with this kind of specific, could we say political, but this specific worldview, which then moves us into the place of again a brilliant marketing campaign, division through identity.

SPEAKER_01: 40:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:45

So instead of representing everyone under it, when that flag flies high, it represents everyone under it. Just sit with that for a minute. It's now presented by the extremists who are presenting themselves more and more to be centrists, yeah, okay. To belong to only real Britons. And that excludes anyone who doesn't fit their narrative. Hold on a minute.

SPEAKER_01: 41:09

So am I not a real Briton?

SPEAKER_02: 41:11

Well, historically, no, you wouldn't be because you're white.

SPEAKER_01: 41:15

Ooh. Really? That's a head fuck if ever there was one, isn't it? That's a polite way of saying. I just it makes it actually makes my heart hurt. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02: 41:30

Anyway, let's stick with stick with the topic, because remember.

SPEAKER_01: 41:33

No, it's good, I'm going.

SPEAKER_02: 41:34

Brand is one of our fangs. You've got your tears coming again. I have. Brand is one of our fangs for this podcast. So now let's look at the media amplification. Oh, okay. And how this again skews the brand further, moves it away from inclusion, everybody under this flag, too.

SPEAKER_01: 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:47

So it's moved from a symbol to get people into war.

SPEAKER_01: 41:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:51

In order to defy and stamp out and eradicate anyone who doesn't believe what we believe and look like us.

SPEAKER_01: 41:59

Right, okay. Division again there. Move it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:01

Into a symbol of unity for everyone under the flag. Yeah. And now it's going right back across again.

SPEAKER_01: 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:07

Into this this this this element of division. And then again, the media amplification, tabloid headlines, political re rhetoric, they reinforce the skew. And think about now, you know, I love the fact that there are podcasts. We we have one here. Here we go. But look at how often now somebody will pick up a podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

Not a penguin, but pig up a podcast. Yeah, there's another age.

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

And sometimes a very, very skewed one. We're both former journalists, so I think we make our kind of political bias quite clear. Yes. You know, if you're really far right, and you know, to use the the technical term, a bit of a dick, um, why would you be listening to our podcast? Uh but we have to remember that there is always political skews. So only last week, somebody or this week, someone I I love dearly, who is a friend, was telling me that they'd listened to a podcast in which somebody, it's not from here, who's got brown skin, who used to be Muslim, then looked into it and realised and did all his research, and he realised that it's not a good religion. And for proof of this, sent me a link to the podcast, which was very clearly a far-right podcast. Of course, I went back with some facts to just balance that out a little bit, but it's the fact that that's being cited as facts. Yeah. There's no, can we just we're not asking the questions anyway? Let me before I lose my phone. Tell me your ADHD without tell me your AD. So again, all the all the media um uh amplification now. So so for instance, uh outrage over flagless TV studios uh of politicians not posing with flags, and then you think about another flag to do with inclusion when we look at the reform-led councils that we now horrendously have in this country banning the pride flag.

SPEAKER_01: 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:56

Anyway, um, and the irony, the irony that that we moved away from just this symbol to get people to go on go into war and fight for the people in power to make sure that they held on to their power and political slay sway and political slay, that was corruption. Yeah, both the Union flag and the St. George's Cross should be symbols of collective identity. Because even if we go back to the Crusades, yeah, think about whether what was happening then, yeah, the Crusades, the Roman army, they would not have been all white people. They've now been hijacked so strongly that a lot of people feel alienated by them rather than represented. And that's the bit that makes me feel the result. But again, think of it in terms of marketing and brand. The result. Okay, go ahead. What could be marketing still could be inclusive emblems, emblems of unity, have been reduced by political agendas into what's the word? Divisive, divisive cultural markers. Which is why, and um I'm not sure if I've if I've written about this at the time, I know it's on my agenda too, the um the the unity flag that's been developed. Oh yeah, which looks like the union flag, yeah, but has all kinds of different colours to represent different nationalities, different faiths, different uh different different genders, different everything.

SPEAKER_01: 45:26

That's the Britain I know and love for me.

SPEAKER_02: 45:28

And that's where we can look at that and still recognise the union flag and think that's what it's about. But again, the sticklers beneath any one of those patients will be, don't you understand what those colours mean? Yes, and don't you understand what they're being used for?

SPEAKER_00: 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 45:42

Um and think about mini, you know, some of the some of the the minis have different coloured flags on the top. When somebody sees one of those, they don't go, that's not the right colours. And neither does Nigel Niggle Farage. Now he's got it on his he is a bit of a niggle when he's got it in his football strips. So with any marketing opportunity in any brand, we also need to look at the opportunity, don't we? So what's the opportunity here? So the opportunity, as I see it, is for people to come together to reclaim those symbols. So, like during England's brilliant lionesses football runs, where people of all backgrounds celebrate together.

SPEAKER_00: 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:25

Um it shows that the roses shows that they can be depoliticised and they can be turned back into signs of shared belonging.

SPEAKER_01: 46:37

Yeah, a vehicle for celebration and unity and all of that.

SPEAKER_02: 46:43

Yeah. But that, my dear listeners, is up to us.

SPEAKER_01: 46:46

Cool, there you go. That definitely needs a bum bum bum bum bum bum bum at that point.

SPEAKER_02: 46:52

Let me just bring this back to a a a little piece of um what's the word? Kind of pop history, if you like. Okay. Let's think of a movie that's an old movie now. Okay. But one of the first ones that we were all excited about because of that new kind of animation it was using. Who remembers the film A Bug's Life?

SPEAKER_01: 47:15

Yeah. Pixar.

SPEAKER_02: 47:16

Oh, I love that. With the grasshopper. Do you remember what the what was the the the whole kind of premise of that that movie? It's about an ant, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 47:24

Yeah, but all of the ants.

SPEAKER_02: 47:25

But the ant, the colony of ants. What do we know about ants?

SPEAKER_01: 47:28

Well, they're workers, they work hard. They work together as a team.

SPEAKER_02: 47:31

What else is the brilliant thing about ants where kids, as kids we go, wow, really?

SPEAKER_01: 47:35

They can lift so much so much. So many times their body weight, they're so, so strong. It's the equivalent of us like lifting a double decker bus or something, isn't it? That's the stat that sometimes comes in.

SPEAKER_02: 47:44

It's even heavier when it's got bullshit about the NHS on it.

SPEAKER_01: 47:46

Oh, yeah. How dare I?

SPEAKER_02: 47:49

A bug's life.

SPEAKER_01: 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 47:50

Where where Flick and his gang are being ruled and and and bullied by the grasshoppers. Yeah, the grasshoppers. By the grasshoppers. Until one day they realise, hold on, not only are we all strong AF, but there's more of us than there are grasshoppers. So why don't we take our power back? So maybe we need to remember that although a very, very loud minority are trying to make themselves sound like the majority by waving their flags and trying to distort what should be a symbol of unity into something that's about division and hatred and uh racism, war, hurt, upset, you know. Anything that isn't pale xenophobia. We need to remember that they're not the majority. It's their extreme actions that are gaining the newspaper headlines, which creates more and more media coverage, which fills our social media feeds and our algorithms, which wherever we stand on this, we're gonna see more and more of the views that match our own, and we're gonna feel more and more disenfranchised by those who don't and horrified, and we're gonna feel like we're in the majority, and that anyone with a different view is in the minority. We know statistically, when we look at our beautiful country, and it is beautiful, there are more of us, there are more of us ants than the grasshoppers. We're putting the ant into giant, nice, and we need to reclaim everything that we represent, which is a genuinely united kingdom, regardless of colour, regardless of creed, regardless of beliefs. United we stand. United we stand, divided we fall, and as for free speech, look up the uh paradox of tolerance and just have a think before you go. Yeah, that's a really good idea, I agree.

SPEAKER_01: 50:08

Or just take something as read that you've read. Every story doesn't just have one side or even two sides, it has many sides.

SPEAKER_02: 50:16

Scratch the surface when you're getting one of those glib sound bites or you know, headlines or social media feeds before you just forward it and go, hey, I've heard this, this must be true because drop it into one of the fact-checking sites like Snopes, or if you if you really want to go rudimentary, drop it into AI and ask it to to cross-refer and fact-check.

SPEAKER_01: 50:38

Don't just take it as red.

SPEAKER_02: 50:40

Or dare I say it, open a book. Well, these these kind of heavy things made of paper smell really good. Yeah, they do. Open a history book. And again, remember. Let's not repeat it, eh? Far right sounds very much like far right. We do not want rivers of blood all over again. Anyway, we should probably stop now because we're on nearly 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_01: 51:01

You're actually a bit longer than that, does because I didn't set that until about three or four minutes in.

SPEAKER_02: 51:05

So anyway, despite the the passion that we've we've we've shown here, I hope that's been a really useful insight into branding and marketing and how it can change over time, how it can be skewed. And I think for once we've actually stayed on topic quite well. Apart from that bit about a bug's life.

SPEAKER_01: 51:24

So let us know what you think about the podcast. Do talk to us, keep talking to us, and in the meantime, we will see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02: 51:35

You've been listening to Awesomely Off Topic with Taz Thornton and Nature Clearwater. Follow or subscribe so you don't miss whatever wild tangent we wander down next. If you want to find us, you can. We're very Googleable. Catch you soon.