🎙️ Episode 31: Tuesday The 13th

Everybody knows about Friday the 13th.

Tuesday the 13th has a much longer, stranger history.

This episode landed on that date by accident. We’ll let you decide what you make of that.

We start with triskaidekaphobia and The Thirteen Club – people who deliberately sat thirteen at the table to provoke the reaction it caused. Not because they believed anything bad would happen, but because everyone else did.

From there, the conversation moves into business, pressure, money, launches, and the quiet behaviours people slip into when certainty drops away. Numbers avoided. Habits repeated. Decisions nudged by things that don’t quite make sense on paper.

It’s a conversation about control, discomfort, and pattern-seeking minds doing what they do best when something matters.

No conclusions. No reassurance.

Just an honest look at how humans behave when they don’t feel in control.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

You're listening to Awesomely Off Topic, the podcast where we talk books, brand, business, and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. We're Taz and Asha, ex journos, now coaches, creators, and chaos navigators. Let's go! Welcome to Awesomely Off Topic, and today we are going to be talking about something really auspicious that happened on this date. Well, auspicious, up to you. We think it's kind of cool. But remember, this is January the 13th, so we thought we'd talk about all things suspicion, because you know, 13, Triskodecaphobia, the fear of the number 13, and this idea that 13 is bad look. So later on, we're gonna touch on all kinds of weird business superstitions and rituals and and things like that. But before we get to that point, we thought we'd tell you a little bit about where this whole idea came from for 13 being bad in the first place. And the thing to remember is that it doesn't come from a single source, it's one of those superstitions that's kind of layered up over time out of myths, religions, storytelling from all over the world, and essentially our very human need for patterns and control. So at the root of the fear of number 13 is this for a very long time, twelve was seen as the perfect, complete number. So think twelve months in a year, twelve zodiac signs, twelve Olympian gods, twelve tribes of Israel, twelve disciples, twelve hours on a clock face. So thirteen became the number that broke the system. It's the excess, it's the disruption, it's the one that does not fit neatly, and that alone was enough to make people uneasy. So let's talk about some of the cultural references that um uh contributed to this superstition around the the number 13. And Ashra, I hope you're listening, because this is gonna tie into what you're gonna talk about shortly.

SPEAKER_01: 2:07

Sure, I'm listening, Taz, I'm listening.

SPEAKER_00: 2:09

Okay, so uh the Last Supper, Christian influence, the Bible. One of the strongest cultural reinforcements of 13 being bad comes from Christianity because, of course, at the Last Supper there were 13 people at the table, and the 13th was, of course, Asher. It wasn't Asher. The 13th person at the table was Judas. Of course.

SPEAKER_01: 2:33

Judas. Sorry, I just had a I had a little that just decided to go on my shoulder and then collapse on my lap. So I apologise for not listening. Yeah, we're recording this one at home. Excuse me, I'm now having a coughing fit, so I'm just gonna grab a drink. But carry on.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

It must be the number 13 making things all go bad for her, all going a bit squiffy for Ashrada.

SPEAKER_01: 2:50

It is.

SPEAKER_00: 2:51

So 13 people at the table at the last supper. The 13th, of course, was Judas who betrayed Jesus. So from this grew the long-held belief that if 13 people die together, if 13 people die together, one will die within the year. And this belief was widespread in Europe.

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

And it was say when 13 people dined together.

SPEAKER_00: 3:15

Dine.

SPEAKER_01: 3:15

Because I heard die the first time.

SPEAKER_00: 3:18

When 13 people dine together, of course, because that's just what I'm going to tell you about in a minute. Exactly. One of them is going to die. This belief was widespread throughout Europe, it was deeply embedded in Victorian Britain. Shocker. Of course, it was deeply embedded embedded in Victorian Britain, our friends of the Victorians. And this is why it lingers so strongly in Western culture. But it doesn't just end with Christianity. If we look at Norse mythology, which of course that's an older pre-Christian myth that sits within this, that had Loki as the 13th guest. So in North Norse North, Norse, Norse legend, I'm getting a bit overexcited, Ash.

SPEAKER_01: 3:55

I know, you're getting geeky.

SPEAKER_00: 3:57

I'm getting all geeky. Twelve gods were feasting in Valhalla. Loki arrived uninvited as the 13th, and his presence led to chaos in the death of Boulder, one of the most loved gods. So again, 13, the outsider. 13, disruption. 13, something goes wrong. Different culture, same story. There's also loads of myths about the the number 13 being skipped or missed in ancient lists with and ancient co laws and codes, although I think most of the time people are putting that down to kind of lost in trans translation moments more than anything, almost certainly a numbering error by later translators. But people did notice lots of 13s being missing, and this tells us something really important. Superstition often works backwards. We notice the patterns and then we build stories to justify them. Okay. And of course, then we get to Friday and 13. Only a Tuesday today, guys, but hey, still 13. The fear really locks in when 13 combines with Friday.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

So you know, I must confess I do have those moments when it's Friday the 13th. I don't know about you, but if I've got to travel somewhere or something like that, I get a little bit jittery.

SPEAKER_00: 5:12

I just think it sounds like that's another Friday the 13th movie marathon. I still don't think I've seen all of them.

SPEAKER_01: 5:18

Do you never have that kind of sense of dread or no?

SPEAKER_00: 5:21

I worry that other people might, but I don't, not around Friday the 13th. It's in it is in my Well, remember that traditionally, which kind of books the trend with today's attitudes when it comes to life and business, Friday had a really bad reputation. So Jesus was crucified on a Friday, according to Christian tradition, because executions uh were also commonly held on Fridays in in medieval Europe. So that follows through. So when Friday and 13 merged, you got a super stress superstition, easy for you to say, strong enough to survive way into modern times.

SPEAKER_01: 6:01

Well that's what because I know there's a lot of hotels that won't have a 13th floor. That's right. And airlines that skip row 13.

SPEAKER_00: 6:07

Yeah. It's bonkers, isn't it? Yeah. Um there's a compound fear that's fear of Friday the 13th, I'm going to try to pronounce, which is Paraskevidicatriophobia.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

Okay. Would you like to say that more quickly?

SPEAKER_00: 6:24

No.

SPEAKER_01: 6:25

Oh, go on. No, go on.

SPEAKER_00: 6:26

We're not easy to do. Jürgen Bock and Flugenbergen Day. Okay, so and of course Triskodecophobia, so fear of thirteen, easier to say. Came later. Um The part that matters really is that fear of thirteen isn't really about the number. If we go back to all those points about it being, you know, the odd one out, the the number that that that buggers up the perfect numerical codes. Um it's actually about loss of control, uncertainty, yeah, and pattern disruption. And of course when outcomes feel risky or unknown, what do humans look for? Signs, symbols, numbers, rituals. And 13 becomes kind of a I don't know, container for discomfort. We still do that today, don't we? You know, we've done it. If if there seems to be a load of shit going down in the world, we'll speak to somebody who's who's well into the planets and go, is there something weird happening today?

SPEAKER_01: 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:24

You think about our Mercury retrograde episode.

SPEAKER_01: 7:26

Yeah, when we talked about that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:27

We still do it. So some people still avoid 13, some people challenge it. You're going to talk about that in a minute. And some people secretly organise their lives around in air quotes better numbers. Is that you?

SPEAKER_01: 7:42

If you're listening and that's you, maybe you've had that moment like I talked about earlier about Friday the 13th, just feeling a little bit nervous just for a few seconds, trying to cut it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

Oh, Tuesday the 13th.

SPEAKER_01: 7:52

But then, you know, then dismissing it. But have you got anything like that where you have a little bit of fear that creeps in? Even if you're having a word with yourself thinking that's ridiculous, it's still kind of there lurking.

SPEAKER_00: 8:02

Have any of you refused to listen to this episode on the day that it was released because it's a 13? Or maybe just because you think, what the hell are they talking about? We think that all the time, to be fair. Anyway, let me let me tell you quickly about Triskodecophobia. There is no single first recorded case of Triskodecophobia. I was really hoping there would be, so we can go into how that happened. Yeah, I was imagining this this Victorian woman who kept fainting every time she saw the number 13, but alas, no such thing. What is really clearly documented, however, is that the the very, very early superstition around 13, ancient and medieval, and then a much later forming of the a formal naming of this fear as a psychological concept. So again, in medieval Europe, the 1200s, the 1400s, you've got this widespread belief that if 13 people dying together, it foretold death, and that was considered common knowledge, okay, not fringe belief. So it was treated as wisdom, not pathology. So that's what's what's really important. That's why triskodecophobia came later. Because uh at that point, nobody thought this person has a phobia. They thought, well, this is how the world works. So the term triskodecophobia actually comes in, it's quite a modern invention. The first known use of its term is generally credited to I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this name correctly. That's another strange pronunciation. Isidore Corriott, who was an American psychoanalyst in 1910.

SPEAKER_01: 9:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 9:32

And he used it in a psychological context to describe an irrational fear of the number 13, framing it as a phobia rather than a superstition. And that is the key shift because before that point, fear of thirteen was tradition, belief, religion, folklore. After this point, it was a fear, something that could be analysed psychologically. So the first recorded case in the modern sense would be early 20th century clinical or psychoanalytic discussions, not a medieval peasant refusing to sit at a table. Okay, well. Or a fainting Victorian moment. But because the fear was already entrenched, and that's what makes this January the 13th an auspicious date.

SPEAKER_01: 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

January the 13th is actually the anniversary of something, isn't it, Asher? Over to you.

SPEAKER_01: 10:20

Well, yeah, I'm gonna take you back in time a little bit to 1882. And basically, there was a group in New York that said basically they were saying, right, we're gonna, instead of avoiding 13, we're gonna really lean into this and look at this, and we're gonna go, pa, this is ridiculous. So debunkers, let's tempt fate, you know, properly, let's go for it. So and that's how the 13 Club was born. So 13 Club, they did everything they could to include the 13 in absolutely everything they met on the 13th. Um, in New York, they had exactly 13 members, they deliberately broke every superstition they could think of. They were walking under ladders, they were spilling salt. I have to say now, actually, I still, whenever I spill salt, it happened over Christmas, I always throw it over my left shoulder.

SPEAKER_00: 11:05

I can never remember which shoulder, so I took a bit of both.

SPEAKER_01: 11:07

I hope it is my left shoulder, but I do it over my left shoulder, but it might be my right shoulder. But anyway, I'll throw it over my shoulder, just in case. Um so they walked under ladders, they spilt salt, they crossed knives. It was kind of a bad luck checklist. They got everything they could. And that was to to debunk superstition. Yeah, so it was like it was basically it wasn't just a prank, it was a real protest against the kind of Victorian thing around superstition. But if you think about it, at the time, that would have been all the fake mediums and the sales.

SPEAKER_00: 11:39

Photos of ectoplasm and airquil.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

So this was sceptics saying, right, show us the evidence label. Show us that. So if you like it, was so literally on this day in 1882, this this club formed. Wow. And you see, what happened as well? It didn't just stay in the States, it came here as well. It came to London. Of course. So London had its own version of the 13 Club, and it was often tied, ironically, Taz, we like this one, to writers, journalists, and very smug rationalists, apparently. When I looked it up, I was looking at the city. I don't think we're smug rationalists, but we can we can tick journalists. Um apparently the British version, not surprisingly, as well understands, was less kind of theatrical. It was more kind of quietly proven a point over dinner. But kind of saw a dominant. So it was it Well, that's a nice word. So it just shows you that the fear of 13 never really went away, but these guys were out to actually put it, you know, to really put it to the test and keep testing it. How did they prove that nothing bad happened? Well, they just they were absolutely looking at how they would do all these things and they'd still be living at the end of it. There was nothing bad happening to them. So they'd be doing these everything they could. They'd be throwing this, you know, they'd be, you know, crossing the knives, they'd be doing all that that we talked about earlier, everything they could, walking under ladders, testing it out all the way through, having 13 people at the dinner table, and that ties into your thing that you were talking about earlier, didn't it? About death would surely follow.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

Didn't some of them actually keep death records to prove that nobody died from unnatural causes? Yeah, they were very particular about that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:12

So they were keeping records to make sure that it was absolutely tested all the way through so that they could say, look, our proof of this is that you can do all of these things and you can still be breathing at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00: 13:22

Nothing bad has happened. Yeah, exactly. I am the proof.

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

Yeah. So I think so. The 13 clubs, so let's think about it then. So if that existed today, perhaps it does, perhaps there's still a 13 club. Do you have a 13 club near you? Let us know. Let us know. But if that existed today, what would they be rebelling against now? Do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

I apologize for the bleep that's just happened. It's because I had the laptop plugged in, but I hadn't got the plug switched on. Oh well done, Taz, another classic.

SPEAKER_01: 13:47

Yes. Um, but yeah, what would it, what would they be rebelling against now, do you think? If it was a 13 club now, what would you what would you be setting up a 13 club for?

SPEAKER_00: 13:57

I think Trump's bad hair is a place to start. That can't be good look, can it?

SPEAKER_01: 14:01

We always manage to find at some point, don't we? But there you go. So, so that's it. So the 13 club. So I think it's what would it be today?

SPEAKER_00: 14:09

What are the so what are the superstitions that are still alive today? You've just said you still throw Scholt over your foda. Scholt over your shoulder, my goodness.

SPEAKER_01: 14:17

I do. I did throw see my brain my foda. My brain's working faster than my mum because ADHD. Right, okay. So um, what else do I do? Um I've still got to think sometimes, and I did this when I was a kid, how many of you when you were a kid did this? And I have to confess, as an adult, I've been known to do it. I will still not work it walk over the tread on the cracks. Tread on the cracks in a pavement. Sometimes I will get like that. And because I've got short legs, that's been that can be quite if I'm trying to get from one paving slab to the next and get jump over stuff. Well I've got to go. Yeah, because I've only got little legs. So if you see me walking very more strangely than usual, then you'll probably know that occasionally I might be looking down at cracks in the pavement.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

I still find myself doing that. As a kid, would did that not become quite a fun game though, the kind of don't tread on the cracks thing and skipping through them to try and avoid the cracks?

SPEAKER_01: 15:06

Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00: 15:08

Because we've done that one for me out and about just being half about heart.

SPEAKER_01: 15:14

What else do you do then?

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

Um, I will very often deliberately walk under a ladder if I see one.

SPEAKER_02: 15:20

Oh, I'll get refilled.

SPEAKER_00: 15:21

Because it's like, oh, I'm fine, let's walk under it. And again, as yeah, I consider myself really, really woo, but that's one of the few times where I'll go how ridiculous and walk under a ladder.

SPEAKER_01: 15:30

But would you do anything in terms of business? What about let's look at because again we are we do talk about business in this podcast. We do indeed. So let's bring it to be is there anything in business where you've kind of thought about those certain rituals that you've got in business or superficials, rituals, things that like what?

SPEAKER_00: 15:48

Yeah, there's definitely things. So I remember in the early years of of being a professional speaker, I used to always, always, always, and I was asked to prove it on more than one occasion, and I did, I would always go and do a talk wearing a pair of superhero pants. I thought that was for our American viewers, that's in the UK, knickers, not trousers.

SPEAKER_01: 16:09

But I thought you also did that. It was just a real boost to be all it was about.

SPEAKER_00: 16:13

But that's why it was kind of a bit like footballers having lucky pants.

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

Well, I've got definitely with the sporting thing, and that is really common, I think, in sporting circles, definitely. There will be as a supporter of a club, for instance, so if the lionesses are playing, it's not just about wearing my lioness's shirt, but I've also got my lioness's socks that I'll wear, or I'll wear I have a certain scarf that I'll call.

SPEAKER_00: 16:33

Sorry, and you managed to work it round to football. Yeah, I have sorry. For goodness sake.

SPEAKER_01: 16:39

That was poor, wasn't it? That was really poor. That was really poor. I'm just trying to think what else. I don't think it's ever stopped me from doing any business on on the 13th of the month or anything like that. But as I said, my only thing now is around Friday the 13th. There's still a little bit. If I've got a meeting or something and I've got quite a long journey to get there, sometimes I I might get a little bit of anxiety coming in about that.

SPEAKER_00: 17:00

So are there any business superstitions or business practices that that tend that generally happen? Asher, you've gone very, very quiet. She's Asher's now got her thinking. She's glitching.

SPEAKER_01: 17:15

I am glitching. She's totally glitching. I'm sorry, I just looked at that and I'm looking at a dog because I've now got a golden deedle on my lap. So apologies for that.

SPEAKER_00: 17:24

Meaning I have little things with with like numbers, figures. I I like I tend to if I'm doing anything with numericals, I try to make sure that there's a an eight or an eleven in the name. Oh yeah, we always do that. In the name and the number.

SPEAKER_01: 17:37

We always do that though. So that's like because we've talked about that in previous episodes, haven't we, about eight and eleven. Yeah. So eight letters in I love you and 13 eleven. Sorry, eleven letters can't even count. She's not editing it. She's proofreading. It's actually late at night recording this. I'm really not sure. It's nine minutes past eleven years. I should be in bed by now. Um yeah, and eleven letters in I love you too. So that's what one of the things that we do when we sign our letters off to one another when we use in our courting days, which we've talked about before, haven't we, as well? So I think I've got my favourite numbers. I have to say, I'm more of a like my lucky number is seven. That's my lucky. Have you got a lucky number? Eight. Eight. Is that because of the I love you thing? Yeah. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

Well, seven's because of Kevin Keegan, isn't it? It is. You've moved it back to football again, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01: 18:26

That's where it started, just because it was he was my favourite player, yes. But also it's a good number, it's a good number. I like a seven, I like a seven as a as a lucky number.

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

So here's some of the s the rituals and superstitions I've I've picked up through through my time as coach of people on businesses, and speaking at lots of different business events, some people have a lucky pen, though uh they will only sign contracts with their lucky pen. Okay. That's one I've heard a few times, or we'll only use a certain colour of ink.

SPEAKER_01: 18:54

Yeah, I can understand that. I definitely understand. So, for instance, at the moment we've got some here's a good, another potential sponsor, magic whiteboard um in a kitchen diner at the moment, because where we're um having to give our elderly dog her regular medication, we've got a little thing on the wall, so we make sure that she's given her her stuff twice a day. Yeah. So we don't forget. Because we had one where we were had a busy day and we forgot about it and felt terribly guilty. So um, but that's great stuff because that is absolutely um there to help. What was the point I was making? I forgot the point there. The colour of the pen? The colour of the pen is purple, thank you. Um, and because I don't like because I don't like it, it was all like just boring black, and I wanted a purple. A purple colour is a good striking colour for me. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

But is that now a superstition or a ritual? Are you are you or do you just prefer the colour of a purple whiteboard marker?

SPEAKER_01: 19:46

No, but I also like to be able to I don't know the point I was making with that. I've lost my Is it because it wasn't football? Yeah, probably. All right, don't be sarky now, it's late. I have completely lost the plot now, everybody. I have Do you apologise. Some people in business of course care to make it now.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

Avoid launches or announcements of contracts on Friday the thirteenth. Yes, I can understand that. I can understand that. People have different numbers that they like to use for things like pricing, programme lengths, targets. Yeah. You know. Do you have any with that? What about you? No, I just like big numbers in your person. Actually, yeah, if we look at my soulful success programme, which is the group coaching programme that blends kind of spirituality and business, um, that's£88 a month because of the spiritual significance of of the number eight and eighty-eight. Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we do. That's why I tell you what I'm funny about. That's why it's actually underpriced because it's like what you are as well.

SPEAKER_01: 20:47

And if we go on to one, I know there's one that we share because we talked about it earlier. It's the thing around notebooks. Yeah. And stationery, sexy stationery. Who doesn't love lovely stationery? We've said that before too. But uh with a notebook, I hate to go on to a new notebook if I haven't finished an old notebook. I like it. Do you know what I mean? I'm very particular about that. So for instance, when I was decluttering um a couple of days ago, I found about four or five notebooks that were um not completely full. With just the front page written on. Yeah, and I just said I'm not throwing them out for if they've only just got one or two pages used. But if it's anything past three quarters, then I might be really strict with myself and let them go. And that was really difficult. Really bad. But I've got a particular thing about certain notebooks for certain things.

SPEAKER_00: 21:32

Have you?

SPEAKER_01: 21:33

So I like a B, a B B five. B five is my that's my planning notebook. That's one of my little rituals. And then if I'm just making notes with a client, for instance, I will use a more traditional, smaller notebook. A5. An A5.

SPEAKER_00: 21:48

Yes. What about you? I don't care, I just like the notebook. There you go. I like little notebooks I can stick in my bag.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

And I'm seeing I don't like that because for me, uh they're too small for me.

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

But I have I like to be able to carry them in my pocket or in my bag so that I've got something to write with on the go. No, I get that. If I just get ideas sparking, and yes, I could do it in my phone, but of course writing with a pen activates a different part of the brain and helps your creativity to flavour. Anyway, back to traditions. What about what about we've both witnessed this with clients sitting on things, waiting for their business to to launch something new because they're waiting for the planets to align and it has to be the best date to launch that business.

SPEAKER_01: 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:30

And that's not to knock anyone's beliefs, but I think sometimes that can be we can sometimes get stuck in that we can sometimes get stuck in that story. But like if you've listened to the the episode before this, yeah, that can sometimes be one of those stories that stops us from doing things.

SPEAKER_01: 22:46

Yeah, and I just no, I don't think I've ever done I don't think I've ever done that at all. I just think it's it's m for me it's a gut feeling. If it feels right for that, then don't let that number Yes, exactly, Gladys. That sigh was uh one of our doggies sighing away. She's like, Why are you talking this time of night?

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

I'll tell you what I have done, which kind of ties in. I have literally pulled the car across to the side of the road and taken a picture of the speedometer when it's hit a perfect set of numbers.

SPEAKER_01: 23:11

Oh, I get that. Yeah, that's there's something really exciting about that.

SPEAKER_00: 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:15

But why? It's just numbers. No, I know, I know. It is there's something really mesmerizing about it. But everybody don't try at home and certainly don't try looking at that when you are driving. Always look at the road ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 23:27

Read the road ahead. No, I'm not looking at it all the time, I just happen to glance down and go, oh yes.

SPEAKER_01: 23:33

Yeah. But we always read the road ahead and keep our eyes firmly on the road with both hands on the wheel. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 23:39

Well like colours of pens, so there are some people who will only write their goals down in certain colours.

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

Well, we talked about that a bit, didn't we? I was saying about the purple thing.

SPEAKER_00: 23:47

Oh, rewriting something more than once just to get the energy right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

What how do you I use it for so for instance, if I've got something like a mantra, so in one of my journals at the moment, I've got a mantra that I come up with every day. Yeah. Right, and so I will write that more than once. I'll usually write it maybe five times or something, then say it out loud because it gives it a bit more power, a bit more room.

SPEAKER_00: 24:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:09

But I don't think I'd rewrite stuff necessarily.

SPEAKER_00: 24:13

What about things like sitting in the same chair for important calls?

SPEAKER_01: 24:18

Uh actually, that's not yeah, that I can understand that too. I mean, I uh we know we talk about squeaky chairs a lot on this show, but it's not just about the squeakiness, it's about feeling confident in the chair, I think, as well, rather than it being I think that's a good reason for me. If I feel like I've got a good chair that I'm sitting in on my back, I'm supported well. Strong on the floor, grounded. Yeah, it gives me a bit of extra oomph.

SPEAKER_00: 24:44

Some people, um, I've just done a quick search online to see if about to to ask for if there have been any uh business rituals or superstitions. Um arranging desks in a precise order before starting work is one of them. Okay. Uh we know somebody used to do that. We used to both work in an office with somebody who used to really keep things really precisely.

SPEAKER_01: 25:07

Yes. Oh whoopsie. Sorry, we apologise now. Actually, that wasn't me that did that, that was you and a certain other person. And Lisa, if you're listening to this.

SPEAKER_00: 25:16

Lisa Townsend, if you're listening to this.

SPEAKER_01: 25:19

I've heard this story many times.

SPEAKER_00: 25:20

Somebody gave us a little printer and it was is it bright, it was a bright pink paw print, so we used to put bright pink paw prints all over his.

SPEAKER_01: 25:28

I got that from one of my stationary contacts.

SPEAKER_00: 25:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 25:31

Which was a little pad print printing thing. What do I mean? An ink stamp. Stamp stamp, that's the word.

SPEAKER_00: 25:37

We'd put little pink paw prints all over his writing. Oh my goodness, mate, somebody wasn't happy. Or sometimes we'd do things like just move the ruler to the other side of the desk or move the stapler to turn it the other way around. Really little things. Oh, not a little thing though. I think the best one though, because we're working on an Apple Map desktops. Yeah. Oh yeah, I know what you're gonna do. Taking a screenshot of the desktop and then hiding all of the icons behind the waste paper bin and setting the screenshot with taken as his as his desktop pattern.

SPEAKER_01: 26:10

Oh, how long did it take him to realise what was going on? Oh no. Oh goodness me. Did he ever find out that it was you? I don't know. So if he listens to this, he'll know, because you'll get sorry not sorry, Chris.

SPEAKER_00: 26:26

Oh dear. Oh goodness me. It was very funny.

SPEAKER_01: 26:29

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 26:30

Maybe not for him. Anyway, um, keeping certain objects nearby, things on the on a round your desk to help tell me if you you want to score.

SPEAKER_01: 26:38

I brought you something nice, didn't I, for that? For Christmas.

SPEAKER_00: 26:41

You bought me a fidget pen that breaks down into lots of little bits, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:44

Yeah, so you have that to keep you busy when you're in school to keep your hands busy.

SPEAKER_00: 26:48

Sometimes people keep things like awards where they can see them to remind them, to give them that boost of photos, little tokens, things that mean something to do. What else should I buy you that was a bit different this year? All kinds of things you've brought me that were a bit different.

SPEAKER_01: 27:01

No, but I meant as in the little plant thing.

SPEAKER_00: 27:04

You bought me a little lucky sunflower to that said I needed to remember the difference I made.

SPEAKER_01: 27:10

Yeah, to other people, to people's lives. Yeah, those days when you find it tough. So there you go. Crystals? Crystals, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:19

Yep. Your healing coo sits on the desk.

SPEAKER_01: 27:21

My highland cow.

SPEAKER_00: 27:22

Your little healing coup from from something woo. Yeah. In Royal Wood and Bassett. Yeah. If you're listening, Louise.

SPEAKER_01: 27:29

Thank you very much, Louise, my lovely, lovely.

SPEAKER_00: 27:31

You had something else from Christmas from that shop as well.

SPEAKER_01: 27:34

I did, wonderful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 27:35

Um you know, even people who say they're not into that and not woo at all will still keep crystals by their desk.

SPEAKER_01: 27:40

It's interesting. That will come out in conversations. The number of times that's happened in business meetings when somehow it's come around to things like crystals that what are you like?

SPEAKER_00: 27:50

Do you not want to have a strange situation where you got stopped at security coming back from a business conference?

SPEAKER_01: 27:56

In Frankfurt. Yes, I did. It was not my finest hour. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but basically I took some crystals with me in my clock. I'm not a good flyer, I'm quite a nervous flyer. I've got a lot better now, but I was very nervous at that time, and I took them with me, and I had a very intimidating, very scary German security woman who was very just very frightening, really, who could not understand what these were in my pocket. And and in that really awful, patronizing way, I made it ten times worse because I did that really stupid British thing where you talk really loudly and slowly.

SPEAKER_00: 28:36

They're crystals, it's quartz. Did you not also have an issue in that same flight with the same woman because you were wearing about 17 pairs of socks? Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 28:47

Because I'd bought new books. I've I've definitely talked about this on the early podcast, but basically, if you've not heard this before, very quickly, I was going around a huge, huge exhibition centre in Frankfurt, makes the NEC look like a village hall in terms of size. I'd stupidly taken some new boots with me, walked around this thing, ended up covered in blisters on my feet, so I had to wear like three pairs of socks just to be able to walk because it was so painful to keep all the plasters and god knows else on. Anyway, it was at the time of the um do you remember the terrace with the with the the bombing? The bombs in the shoes, yeah. Yeah and stuff. So we had to take our shoes off, and it was so embarrassing. I was trying to explain what was going on, why I'd got so many pairs of socks. I'd like to take them all off. One by one. Peel off your crossing. I was not popular, so that wasn't my finest moment. Thank you for that lovely moment. Thank you. Makes me smile. Get back to superstitions and rituals.

SPEAKER_00: 29:43

So sometimes people refuse to move a particular object on their desk because something good happened when it was there. Really? So they don't want to move it again. I don't think I'd notice. No in attentive ADHD. Well, yeah, probably. It's essentially your environment becoming a psychological anchor, isn't it? It's just anchors. Yeah. That's all it is. Yeah. What else? Um we've we've touched on clothing with my superhero pants. Wearing a particular outfit for speaking launch negotiations. It might be a lucky ring or a lucky jacket or a watch or a necklace.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

I won't do that because it was another one. No, you're not. Oh, there's a there's a Bailey on the Pocket Poo on the keyboard.

SPEAKER_00: 30:18

Pocket poo on the keyboard. Not lucky. Refusing to wear something again if a meeting went badly. Oh, okay. See, that wouldn't even I don't think that'd even occur to me to do that. Not to wear it because of that. She's got it here listed doing hair or makeup the same way for visibility moments. That's just about looking decent in front of a camera, surely. No, I don't think that's it can make me feel more confident speaking to the camera if I've got a bit of slap on. What about pre-performance rituals? Playing the same song before going live or on stage.

SPEAKER_01: 30:47

Yeah, I like that because that gets you really like.

SPEAKER_00: 30:50

Yeah, my walk-on music is chosen for as much to give me a uh an anchored state as anything else.

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

A real boost to get before you go on.

SPEAKER_00: 30:57

I do have a little ritual with m with my hands before I go on stage, backstage, that's an anchored confidence point. I do that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:04

I like the old hand slapping with people if I can. Yeah, high five. I noticed there was a great new quiz show on ITV tonight who our lovely friend Louise Huntskelly is on, she's on there. The floor is fine. She's excited. The floor, which I don't know if anybody saw it, but we watched the first episode tonight. Yeah. Um, and we saw them all doing that and high-fiving each other and stuff, and I was like, Yay, go team. Brilliant. But um, I love that sort of thing as well. So that helps me. That's one of my rituals. I think that's more a kind of sporty type thing to do, but I like it. That gets me ramped up and ready to roll a bit.

SPEAKER_00: 31:34

Some people have a fixed little routine before they're doing important calls. If they were having a drink or making sure they've had taking a nice thing.

SPEAKER_01: 31:41

I obviously didn't, that's why I was coughing earlier when I just glitched the first time. I think I'm on a hat-trick of glitches tonight.

SPEAKER_00: 31:47

Carry on, Taz. Uh what else have we got listed here? Only starting work at specific times, avoiding big decisions late in the day, feeling off in the morning routine is disrupted. Yeah, don't waiting for the next week, month or quarterbid to begin properly, so they build some structure in there. And then we've got things like language-based rituals. Now, well, we know that in in it's sometimes in a lot of hospitals, doesn't it? If somebody says, Oh, it's quiet, no, don't say that.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

Yeah, you'll change it. Oh yeah, and in yeah, in retail as well. Retail as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So have you had a quite has it been quiet and then suddenly they get 20 people arrive at once, a coach load of tourists to be served.

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

I think the point is, you know, regardless of whether these are ritual, superstition, if they help people, does it matter? And that's the thing, isn't it? All it all comes back to this this thing about trying to create safety and structure around the unknown, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

It's only when it becomes so for instance with my flying thing, for instance, yeah. If there was, I don't know, for instance, there's an opportunity for me to go back to the Rockies in Canada, one of my favourite places in the whole world. Um, great, you know, chance to go first class, get over there, go and do all the amazing things, but I've got to fly out on Friday the 13th at 1300 hours. Am I not gonna go because of that? Do you know what I mean? It's that it and there will be some people out there that that would be a thing for them. Wouldn't stop me. I know, but I'm just saying that's when it tips. I'd be laughing about it eventually. I know, but it that's when it tips, isn't it? So it's kind of it's putting it in perspective, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 33:22

I suppose it's there's also the mirroring thing going on as well, isn't it? You know, that whole thing about success leaving clues. So if somebody copied your exact business habits, including your timings, your tools, routines, quirks you might not even realise are there, would they accidentally inherit your rituals as well as your strategies?

SPEAKER_01: 33:44

Ooh, that's a question.

SPEAKER_00: 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:47

That's an interesting one, isn't it? What would that be like? Goodness me, I don't know. I've done you'd be silly enough to do that. Don't be sweet enough.

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

Back up in mind, they'd just start having a nananap every day, really.

SPEAKER_01: 33:57

And they just glitch all over the place as they were males. Like glitching times three. How many can we do in the course of an hour?

SPEAKER_00: 34:05

Yeah. So I guess I guess that's it. So we'd love to hear from you. How do you feel about superstition? Are there any weird phobias? I suppose if you've got it and it's inherent to you, it's not weird at all, is it? So I know someone who's terrified of holes. Okay. There's a name for that, I can't remember what it is off the top of my head, but there's there's uh I've known somebody who's been terrified of pigeons. It was terrible trying to get us to go through. That's quite a common one. Go to the station at London for a business meeting. Yeah. All kinds of things. So it's yeah, all kinds of phobias. But where do you sit? Do you have any business rituals or business superstitions? Please let us know. Um if you have any phobias, let us know that you know, ones that are a bit more unusual. And let us know how you feel about the number 13. Would you be the one refusing to leave your house on Friday the 13th? Or would you be one of the people thinking, let's start the 13 club again?

SPEAKER_01: 35:02

Would you be, you know, I was talking about Canada, would you get on the plane on Friday the 13th and fly out of 1300 hours? Would that just you just you know dismiss that and say, oh, it's just superstition, or would you seriously make you think about changing the flight time and the date? Yeah, interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 35:17

Lots to think about. Loads to think about. We would love to hear from you, and we hope this has given you some food for thought. So until next time, we will see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_01: 35:30

You've been listening to Awesome Me Off Topic. Follow or subscribe to make sure you don't miss the next one. We're Asher Clearwater and Taz Thornton, and we'll be back soon.