🎙️ S2 Episode 3: Bookable or Broke?

BOOKABLE OR BROKE? What most speaker training misses

Speaker training is everywhere right now - and so are the promises.

Big stages. Big fees. Fully booked calendars.

But what happens when you’ve paid thousands… and still aren’t getting booked?

In this episode, we’re getting properly honest about what’s actually going on behind the scenes of the speaker training industry. Because having a great story and a polished talk is only part of the picture - and for a lot of people, it’s not the part that’s missing.

We talk about:

•  why powerful talks still don’t get bought 
•  what most speaker training completely overlooks 
•  the difference between a “good speaker” and a bookable one 
•  why relying on speaker agencies alone won’t cut it 
•  how to shape your talk so people actually want to pay for it 
•  the red flags to watch out for before you invest 

We also share practical tips on stagecraft, storytelling, getting your first gigs, and building a speaking profile that lasts - not just one that looks good on paper.

If you’ve ever wondered why some speakers get paid and others don’t, this one matters.

Follow the podcast so you don’t miss what’s next - and if this hits home, come and tell us what had the biggest impact for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is awesomely off topic where we talk books, brands, business and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. I'm Ashra and Tad.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Let's dive in. Remember last season, Ash one, we said we were gonna do a whole episode all about speaking, speaker training, how to get the gigs, how to market yourself as a speaker and all that jazz.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

I do. We didn't do it though, did we? No, we talked about it and around it, but we actually didn't get to it.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

So we're gonna do it now. We are. Now. What is this is gonna be one of the first episodes we've recorded in the new studio, at least with it looking more like a studio, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

It does. It's a work in progress, but again, in there, I think. It looks pretty cool. You've got some good artwork on the on the walls, which people can't see if they're watching on video, but it looks really cool. You've got some we've got some really strange, we've had some interesting reactions, haven't we, already to our our neighbours who rent a place next to us. We met for the first time today. Lovely lady who's a photographer, and yeah, she was um interested in what we got on our shelves.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So, for those of you watching some of this on video, hello! Hello, and do feel free to zoom in and have a nosy at what's behind us. And if there's anything you want to know the story of, then drop us a line and let us know, and we will do our best to wax lyrical for you. There's always a story behind everything. Always. Anyway, back to speaking. Why is it, Ash, that we've been talking about speaking so much lately? I mean, number one, it's because we've got an award-winning Heart of Speaker training retreat coming up. Absolutely. No, not long now. It's about a month and a half away from when we're actually recording this, but of course, depending on when you're listening or watching, could be any time, but we do tend to run them every year when we can. But aside from that, why have we been talking about speaking a lot?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Because we've seen so much peddled, I think, anyway, and really ramped up. Not it's not, and we're not talking about prices, we're just talking about, you know, it's gonna, this is gonna but completely solve all your issues, it's gonna win you bookings all over the place, you're gonna be on every stage possible, across the UK and international. And actually, call me an old cynic. I'm not I am a bit of an old cynic, but it's not about cynicism, it's about reality. We know how hard it is to get, particularly in today's climate, how hard it can be to get on a stage, any stage, or the right the right stage for you and what suits you and your brand and your personal objectives and your business objectives. So I think that's the first thing that springs to mind with me when I think about it. It's really easy to say this is the best thing since sliced bread, blah blah, you must come on. But actually, how's it really going to impact you? How is that investment worth it?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And of course, we we don't say that about ours, but our delegates do.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

We let them speak for us, which is even better.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

So that that splits down into two, doesn't it? Because you've we've got exactly what you just said, i.e., people selling a promise that doesn't exist. You you can't sell a promise in the same way that we when we used to run our PR marketing business. If we were doing PR for someone, they'd want to pay based on guaranteed results, and we'd always say, Well, we can't work on that basis because frankly, after your PR leaves our hands, it's it's a third-party decision unless you want to pay for the space. So we're not gonna guarantee that. We're gonna tell you we're gonna do the best job that we we can do and work with you to get the best chance of you being featured, but we're not gonna give you promises that we can't keep because it's out of our hands.

unknown 3:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

And it's the same with speaker tracking.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Keep it real, that's what we're gonna do. Keep it real.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

We will absolutely hold your hand and give you training every step of the way to help you go from somebody who wants to become a speaker or a better speaker, an improved speaker, through to someone who is regularly getting paid for the gigs. But we can't guarantee you you'll get those gigs.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

If you follow all the steps, then sure, you should. I think this is a great starting point for you. Or even if you are already on the speaker circuit and you just want to refine your skills, want to find a maybe a slightly different way of working on stage as well. There's an awful lot of fun involved as well. It's great, isn't it? The way we mix a variety of things through those three days? Three days, it is three days, isn't it, Ryan?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Make it two days, three days, two days. No, it's three days. It started out as two days. It did. And then we turned it into three days, really. We turned it in three days for precisely this reason. And obviously, we don't want this episode to just be a plug about our speaker training, but it's one of the reasons it's it's high on our agenda at the moment. And on that point, why we made it a three-day retreat is precisely because we wanted people to be able to leave with everything they needed to understand how to promote promote themselves, how to market themselves, how to get the gigs, and also how to shape their talks in order to make sure they're marketable. And what I've seen more and more of, because of course, like many things, I'll get people coming to you and coming to me and and you'll get the same saying, Wow, it's how much? I wish I'd known about yours first. You teach us how much, you do what? And to give you an idea, our top-line speaker training programme at the moment in 2026, yeah, that includes a year's worth of coaching and a guaranteed speaking engagement at the end, albeit an online one for now, but watch this space, comes in at less than four grand, and yes, you can pay in his filament. Our entry level price that gives you the three-day speaker training, plus inclusion in our online speaker, speaker academy groups, plus the three days and the opportunity to film film yourself and get that show real ready, to learn to work with a professional photographer, he'll be there live taking pictures of you, and to deliver your talk in front of a live audience and be filmed if you want to, doing so. That starts at 995 plus that. Now, the reason I'm telling you this is that one of the big rants I have at the moment is that I've had several people come into me over the past month or so telling me how much they have paid for speaker training and what the results have not been. So I had one person I spoke to who had literally invested tens of thousands of pounds into a speaker training program. Remember that our entry fee starts at less than a grand. We're not counting the vital module over, obviously. 995. And at the end of that, they had a talk, and when they told me about the talk, I sat there thinking, that's not marketable. Nobody's gonna buy that talk. And it's it's bloody brilliant information, it's a good, solid talk, but it's not packaged in in a way that'll make anybody want to buy it. And number two, they've not been taught how to actually go out there and get the geese. And I've heard a few people saying this go into speaker training, investing a lot because they've seen it plastered everywhere, you know, shiny guru syndrome, which we all talk about a lot, and they've come away having had yeah, a good time at the actual events, but without the skill set, they need to monetize their speaking career and turn it into a professional paid-for speaker. And I don't understand why not. Somebody else I spoke to said, well when I said, Well, well why are you not getting the gigs then? They were apparently told that the extent of the how to get the gigs training was go out and get yourself a speaker agency or a speaker wrangler.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

And honestly, I'm with a few different speaker agencies, and let me tell you that the majority of speaking gigs that I get are ones that come to me direct because of the marketing that I do. Yes, I do get gigs through speaker agencies. I'm with some of the big speaker agencies.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

But there are a lot of speakers being handled by each speaker agency. But is it important to say at that point, because you have had some success with some of them, is choosing carefully who you work with, but it's also getting to know them getting to know you. Because I know you've had to put yourself in front of those speaker agencies and have several conversations so they get to know more about your speaking, how you work, what your topics are, etc. etc. So that's a really important point, isn't it? To make sure that people really do their homework a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

And also, it's not just a case of telling the speaker agent that you want them to represent you. You've you've got to get them to want to represent you. It's not just a case of tick-a box because you don't you don't tend to pay to be with the speaker agency. Some of them you do, some of the more bespoke ones, but with the bigger speaker agencies, you don't tend to pay to be listed. You have to be selected, and then they will take a cut of whatever it is that that you're being paid for that for that gig.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

And you will also get a massive, there's massive disparity between what people think you should be charging as a speaker. My standard rate for speaking is four and a half K plus VAT at the moment. That does not mean that I won't negotiate or that I won't sometimes go for a lower fee if it's the right event. So, for instance, I had one at the beginning of this year that was just under half my rate, but they also gave me access to a conference, gave me loads of marketing, put us up in a hotel, took us to a networking dinner. They did loads and loads and loads to build that.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So that well done to us. I really hope we get a sponsorship now after that one. You might as well just flash that in front of the camera. I know. But it's really important, isn't it, to think about that too, as a package that what else can they offer? If they can't hit your fee, what can they offer you alongside that that will help you bolster your bolster your your brand, your visibility, etc. etc. What are the other opportunities for you? Yeah. And often that exhibitions will go hand in hand with that as well, so you might be able to be given a stand. That's kind of things like that. Yeah, we have that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah. And it's also about you understanding who you want your audience to be and what stages you want to be on. Now, at the heart of speaking, we focus on working out your personal keynote, the the heart-based story. We do not teach you how to sell from stage. And that's another thing worth remembering. There are kind of two branches of speaking professionally. There's the branch that I absolutely abhor, where they'll stand on stage, give you loads of hype, throw in loads of NLP, and at the end of it, you're eager to go and run to the back of the room and whistles and flashes. Swipe your credit card, and then as soon as the dust settles, you go, hold on, I don't know what I've just paid for. And they actually didn't teach me anything. They've just they've just whipped me up into uh into a buy an excited buying frenzy. Got me to run and swipe my card, and now I'm locked into this deal and I don't know how to get out of it. That's a really interesting point, actually. Um, because not too long ago I helped somebody get out of one of those deals that they had been completely swept away by in the moment and then recognised this is not for me. That doesn't mean they'll come into mind instead, they just recognize I can't do it, I can't do it. I have fallen prey to that myself in the past.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

We talked about that in earlier episodes. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

If you look on my LinkedIn or you go search back through my blogs and you find something that's with the headline that's something like quick, run to the back of the room. There's the story of how I got burned by by that technique. Wasted a shed load of money because I did not get the value for it. I did not get what I was promised. It was nothing to do with speaker training. It was a PR vehicle that I thought would slot in beautifully to the PR work that we were doing at the time. And it was full of bluff and bluster, full of absolute BS, and just a trainer with a massive ego. My take, obviously, my personal reflection, trainer with a massive ego trying to extract as much as they could from the people in the room. I don't like that. But the rules about cooling off periods and the like when you buy live at an event are not as watertight as other cooling off period promises. What's the legislation? There's a big loophole with signing up live for something, particularly if when you're signing all the small print, you're the you're you're saying that this is a guarantee to pay X amount, by X amount, and there's no refunds. A lot of people get tied into those. So that's one branch of speaking. There's standing up on stage in order to get people to buy from you there and then. I don't like that form of speaking. Because for me, if I have paid for an event, to go to an event, particularly a platform speaker event, yeah, and that could be one I've I've invested time in, even if the ticket's been free, if I've invested my time into going to an event, paying for the travel and the accommodation and the food and getting the animals boarded, which yeah, our truest hell animals. Yeah, yeah. All of that jazz. But it all adds up. I want to get something from that event. I don't want to sit there for one day, two day, three days, however long it is, and be hit by a series of adverts.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

And however slick it is, because that's for me, that's almost become the my keep it real thing. That absolutely flies in the face of that. Because you know, there's nothing wrong with being absolutely professional, but if it's so slick that it's a bit, it leaves you going, feeling a bit icky, for me, that always makes my little buzzer golf in my head going, hmm, what's the catch? What's the catch? And as I've said my own personal.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

As I've said many times before, what's the difference between slick and slippery? You actually look at the dictionary terminology. Is there much difference? So it's one thing trying to get out there and be slick, but do you want to be seen as slippery? And then there's the other kind of speaking, the ones who speak from the heart give you a real story of it could be overcoming, it could be of building a business of their dreams, it could be it could be just getting from A to B and showing you how to overcome all of those hurdles, whatever it happens to be. They're the stories that are the hardest to tell well. But once you can tell those stories impactfully and make a positive difference for your audience, you can do anything. So when we run Heart of Speaking, we encourage people to, in a safe space where we promise nothing is going to be shared outside without their permission, we do our best to encourage people to share the stories that they know they might struggle with, the ones that they think, oh, might cry telling that. Because if you can learn to tell those stories in the safe space and do you think do anything.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Part of that, I totally agree with that. That's what I love about our speaker retreat, is that I think that's where our journalistic training comes in. We're able to gently work with people to bring out some of that information that maybe they've not been sure whether that's gonna that's gonna be something to be made public. And without, I don't mean you know being too in your face, but actually just looking at that and looking at the story building, building that story arc and making it a powerful one without the need for a big sale at the end. Because people are naturally gonna say, I'm relating to this, this story. I may not have had this experience, or I might have had something similar, but I'm really connecting with this speaker here, and I want to know more about them. And I think that's the power, it stays for longer, it's got a longer shelf life, if you like, because people remember that. And I know you've had that experience, haven't you? When you've done speaking gigs from like three, four years ago, and suddenly you'll get somebody coming back and saying to you, Oh yes, I remember watching you doing that, delivering that on stage. Yeah, that still stays with me because this happened to something happened to me and it really resonated. Absolutely. That is priceless, yeah, absolutely priceless.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And you know, when I first started my career as a speaker, I'd been speaking for corporate events a long time before that, but when I first started sharing my story, that was a very different experience. And I first started out with sharing my long-established keynote, which was along the lines of how breaking my back learned to led to me growing the spine. The story of overcoming adversity, getting out of domestic abuse, breaking my back in three places when I was trying to unalive myself, and how I have moved on from there and used all of those lessons to help me to become a better coach and to help and support other people. And all those lessons along the way. And of course, that's not necessarily going to be the best gig for every event. Of course, my speaker reperto repertoire.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Repertoire. I was just gonna say, shall I help you? And you can't. Yes, please, repertoire. I'll give her three goes, and then I'll just jump in.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

My goodness.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I have to just hold back there for a change, it makes a change.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah. We've had a fair bit of lost sleep this past few weeks, both with having a very poorly mum and a very demanding, very elderly dog.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So I'm moonstruck because it's been a full moon and we've realised that she should have been named Luna.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Ever since being a puppy, you can tell when there's going to be a full moon because Tilly will want to start going outside. Usually it's about 4am. Yeah. Half an hour either side.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, and just stand.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

And just stand there and gaze at it up. So yeah. Whereas I go, my my speaker, speaking repertoire, has expanded a lot since then, of course, for different events, all from skill set. But that's the point, all from your actual skill set. So one of the one of my popular talks now has to do with archetypes and how we can work with leadership teams, management teams, and indeed the rest of the team to recognise which archetype we are sitting in each day, how we need to be aware of that in order to manage our own state and get the best results from people, but also how to spot the states that somebody else is in and how to best work with them to get the best results, both in terms of emotional and mental well-being, all the way through to things like productivity. So, of course, you can imagine that's a really popular talk. And yes, I do sometimes get asked for that original keynote, but that depends on the event in the same way that sometimes people ask me to build an empowerment option, such as the glass walk, or the rebar bend, or a bare throat arrow break, things like that. But if you start with the heart-based story, and you learn to do that in such a way that you own the room, you own the stage, you know good stagecraft, you also know which audiences it's gonna make an impact for, that paves your way as a speaker for years and years to come.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

And it's the same with you, isn't it? I was just gonna say, I think also, just before we we go, I don't know where you were going then, but I was gonna say that is that is the heart of the course as well, because it doesn't just stop there. It's very much about how you take that knowledge that you've learnt on the course and then you take it into those opportunities that may come your way, how best to handle those, the support afterwards as well. I think that's really important because you have a we have both have quite a lot of follow-up calls, don't we, where people ask for advice. Yeah, it doesn't just stop once we finish that three-day retreat.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, no, that's why we add people into our online groups. If they have a qu have a question, then they can ask us. But also we have on low ongoing training and coaching programs for again very, very low cost compared to a lot of the other speaker training events out there. So, what were you going to ask me? Sorry, I interrupted you then just for a change, you're used to that by now. Well, you kind of did things the other way around because yes, you've done half speaking and gone through that with me so many times, and and as well as assisting me on that, you often get up and join in.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Oh, I like to join in. Which is beautiful. It scares the out of me, but I enjoy it when I'm up and doing stuff and just letting my hair down a bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

But you've spoken an awful lot about story, about getting to write a book, about stories you have covered in the past that have really impacted you. So you've you've you've brought the story of Claire Tiltman to Tiltman into a few a few programmes now. But you were fairly recently, not sure if it was the beginning of this year. Was it this year or last year?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

It was last year, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Anyway, so now we're going, but I can't remember what time.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

You were specifically asked to come and speak at an event about your journey from being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and not being able to walk, through to completely changing your lifestyle and getting to the point that not only were you able to walk again, but you got really into fitness, changed your entire life and business outlook as a result, and believed it was one of the best things that ever happened for you. So you kind of flipped it because yes, you were always talking heart-based stuff, but being asked to actually get up there and tell your story about that part of your life was quite different for you. But I also know it stretched you and it was really, really well received.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, I think it's I'm the classic. I like to be, I'm quite introverted naturally, so I quite enjoy being behind the scenes. If I if I was I love anything to do with theatre and staging, but I'd be the one behind the scenes doing all the background stuff, getting involved in that way. So therefore, when it came to actually putting me out front and centre, I love telling other people's stories. I love telling pet stories. That's what we've been talking about today, International Pet Month. Um, April 1st to May the 5th. Get it in there, I've got a plug. But I think so I've got used to doing that, and that's my comfort zone. So when it comes to actually putting myself out there and putting myself front and centre, it is really uncomfortable. But actually I found that when I did get this got up onto the stage and got into the flow of things and just became myself, even to the point where I'd got a new pair of boots. I decided to take them off on the stage and said they're hurting too much. That was a different talk.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

That was a content prompt challenge talk that you did a few weeks before. That was a good example.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

That was a great example. And I just relaxed and had great fun and I'd love your feedback. So I think for me, yeah, you're right. I've done it the other way around, but I've seen the benefits because I still get comments about that in a positive way. And people then opening discussions about I'd quite like to write a book. I'm a bit worried about what I'm doing with my content. Can you help with that? And all those conversations have come from those gigs. So you're right. I've kind of done it in reverse.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

But I don't regret it. I don't see myself as a public speaker per se. But if anybody said to me, Oh, would you come and talk about story, books, content? You know, if I can be there, I'll be there. Because it's a great opportunity and it's a great marketing opportunity. So why wouldn't I? It doesn't mean that the nerves aren't there. They always are there, but they're there with me whatever I'm doing. So I don't even know.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

As they should be, which again is one of the other areas where I think we sometimes differ. It's not about getting rid of your nerves. Your nerves are there as a speaker because you want to do the best job that you can. Yeah. For the audience, when it gets to the point where you stop having nerves, then either you've gone into bravado or you've stopped caring. And that's probably the day the day you should stop talking.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

It's working with them, isn't it? And using them as your ally rather than friendly. Exactly. And it's becoming, it can really empower you. Yeah. And I know that again, there's some techniques that we introduce, don't we? Well, we talk about that as well, don't we? With how to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, exactly. But you know, over the years, some of the talks that we've delivered between us, we've gone from everything from the journey of of Labrador and our and our cat both getting cancer at the same time and nursing them through that.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

You made a whole audience cry with us. The financial fallout. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Uh through to the the original breaking my back, learn to uh led to grown in the spine, and now my phone is saying it's out of storage.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

No. This is all good because obviously we're trying to film at the same time as we're doing a podcast and obviously audio. So those watching on video will get probably about a third of an episode, but we will keep going anyway because we're on our lovely podcast. So we're going to keep going, Taz. Tally's doing the techie things.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

We are indeed. Just talk amongst yourselves while we're doing this.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

But obviously, the most important thing I think talking about all of this is that in a small relatively small group when we're working together, it's all about honing that stagecraft, building that confidence on stage, whatever stage you're on, whether it is a physical stage or whether it's it's a conference room somewhere without a stage per se, it's about feeling comfortable and really working on your story or your series of stories that you can you can use and turn into great public speaking.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

So the point is we can very easily between us flip between doing a very corporate-led talk that could be about branding, it could be about marketing, it could be to flipping your your vulnerability into a superpower to use it properly for personal branding. It could be harnessing the power of social media, it could be networking. There's lots of stuff that we can talk about from a very corporate point of view, but there is also the flip side of that, the more human interest stuff, which are just as important, just as powerful, and yet it's very, very easy for people to neglect them because again they're not immediately getting cash off the back of them.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I think that's the really important thing. What I've found the common denominator in all of this is human interest. And ever since forever I've been working professionally, I've always that's been my area, and you too. We've worked with a lot of people with their human interest stories. But whether you're writing a book or you're on stage speaking, to connect you is always that human interest vibe, that feeling, that that theme that runs throughout, like a strong spine of your talk. And when you can harness that, and a lot of the people that come on to some of the people that come on to Heart Speaking will say, Well, I don't know what really you know what my story is. And I always say, It's such a cliche, but we always say, You've got so many stories in there, it's just finding the ones that feel right for you in this moment, in this training that we can work with. It's a starting point, and from there you're going to get all these other ideas around other beautiful keyno themes that you can really work on and take away with you as well. So I think that's really important. It's not just about one story. There might be that we'll focus on one key one while you're with us for those three days, but it's about opening the doors to other ideas, other possibilities with that story or those stories, because we've all got them. It's just learning how to tell them in the most powerful way. And that, alongside the stagecraft, all the other things that we bring into the three days, is really, really powerful and long-lasting. It stays with your audience, and that's what you want, you know, and not just the audience, but of course those event organisers who will think, Well, actually, we had them with us last year, they were really good. Should we think about bringing them back? I think that's where you know you're getting somewhere when you get repeat business through the same kind of event organisers, or if they've got a series of events that they're holding around the country, abroad, wherever it may be, and they ask you back, invite you onto a a different stage. And for me, that's the ultimate, that's what we want you to get to that point. And all the way along, we will be there supporting you and singing you from the rooftops tops as much as we can. I think that's the beauty of what we do and how we do it. So, yeah, and it's so important to work and spend time on that story or those stories really early on to get that and get you familiar with it. It sounds really silly to say get you familiar with it, but actually feel comfortable to the point where you can deliver that. Because no, I always say to people, this is why we work a lot with not having a script, not sitting there with you know cards to remind you of stuff to actually because you know this story, as long as you've got those key points and you can work with those key points, we'll help you deliver it in a really good way and good and easy way to do it. So um Taz I'm waffling and you're still fiddling with your phone. So, do you think you could come back into the room now, please? Yeah, so I can go on, right? Okay, are we still recording again now? We are we're recording again now. Because goodness knows what I've just come out with. You weren't even listening, really, were you?

SPEAKER_01 28:11

I was listening, it was really good. And again, the point is that if you deliver a talk that is heartfelt and authentic, and I know that's one of those overused words, but honestly, people can tell whether you are authentic, and that's something else I've got to have a little moan about with some of the other moan speaker trainers. No, no, go for it, Taz. I have heard of speaker trainers who tell people to just embroider their story a little bit more. Your story will be powerful enough, I promise you, without having to embroider anything, it will be. You just need to know how to get that across. And the the the trouble with trying to do something like embroider your story and trying to just bull it up a little bit and polish it beyond recognition, is you only need somebody in that room who was there at the time and says it didn't go down that way, for your credibility to go right through the floor, just like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Or even indeed, somebody that's even connected to somebody in that somebody in the room that's connected to somebody, connected to your story, you know, that that will just start having those conversations that will kind of cast doubt maybe on that. And it might sound, you might there might be some of you listening to this and thinking, oh, the irony, journalists talking about embellishing story. Well, I would say honestly, truly, we come from the old age of journalism when a journalist is there to report the facts, not to embellish, not to give you an opinion, just to be there and report the facts. And one of the things we've always prided ourselves on, I'll certainly speak for myself, I'm sure for Taz too, is that we are not in the habit of embellishing stories. We're there. You don't need to embellish stories. Your sp your story is strong enough in its own right, it will stand up and people will recognise that honesty, that openness, and that vulnerability. There's that word aga that word that we use a lot, particularly in speaking. But the when it's a genuine connection with your audience through letting people into your story in a way that's really vulnerable. You're opening people, letting people into your world for a while. If that's when that's told powerfully, it will stay with them and they will want to stay with you. So important.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Massively, massively, massively. I don't understand why there are people out there who think people need to embellish. It's a really, really dangerous game.

unknown 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Massively dangerous game. Your story is good enough for the start.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Does it come back to that? Oh, it's been it's all shiny and sleek, and look at that, it looks so great. And actually, the reality is if anybody kind of questions, it scratches the surface a bit.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

But isn't that another really interesting point? Because one of the other things that trips people up when they're learning to be speakers, the whole reading from a script and learning anything. And of course, we teach people to speak without a script. Yeah. If you are talking about something you know inside and out, you need to understand how to keep those bullet points that you want to hit in your mind, but you don't want to be reading from a script. You don't need to, because you already know that story inside and out. Trust me, you do not need that script. Yeah. But when we've run events before, so we used to, you used to curate actually a TEDx event, didn't we? Yeah, a couple of them. And we know that when you get the audience grades afterwards, the talks that seemed to be in air quotes perfect, the ones that people would think that's again really, really slick, they are the ones, by and large, that people mark down because they feel so slick, they do not feel believable, and people don't want to be part of it. They don't believe it. It's not real life.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah. In the same way that if you've again, yes, if you've got somebody and I don't know, they trip over their words, says the woman who trips over her words frequently, on this podcast, as you know, embrace it, Asher. That's part of who I am. You know, own it. If that happens on stage, own it. You know, have a little joke with your audience. Nine times out of ten, they're gonna be on your side, they're not gonna sit there looking for you to make a huge mistake. And I would argue that if they are, then maybe you're possibly in the wrong place. But I don't know, you know, human interest, people want to support other people. We're inherently good. I know with the world, you know, world's news at the moment, it's hard to believe that, but I really believe that. And when you're on the stage, if you do cock up a little bit, if something goes wrong, then rather than trying to present everything's fine, you know, own that. What do you do when that happens? And actually, that's one of the things we talk about on heart of speaking. You know, if that happens, we might even give you a situation where that will happen just to test you how you're going to respond to that. Because anything and everything can happen in those moments. If you've got a, I don't know, a 15, 20-minute, half an hour speaking gig, whatever, sometimes things will not go according to plan. Tech is a huge one, isn't it? If tech goes wrong, that can happen. That can happen. It's happened on speaking gigs I've done and speaking gigs you've done. And how are you gonna respond to that? What how are you gonna get through and keep things and keep people absolutely focused on your key messaging? Yeah, you know, what's what's your plan with that? You know, how do you respond to that? And if you're able to not be so reliant on that script, it means that you've got that power of flexibility. You can roll with the punches, you can go with the flow, and you can be believe that you can get through this and deliver, still deliver a really impactful speech, even if things have gone a little bit peak tongue.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

A little bit peak tongue, yeah. Totally, totally, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

You've got the camera back on now, haven't you? I don't know how long it'll last for. I know, I don't I think all that, and I was like, just sit down. I need to sit down. Oh, what's now? I need to sit down at my age. Oh, my old knees, my old knees. Well, they're not as old as my knees. Anyway, let's not go there. Yeah, so there's lots of things. So that's what I love about it, because we bring into that all of this that we've we've talked about. But I think the most important thing is for people to know that I would say it pretty much anybody can be a speaker given the right kind of Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

But they're not gonna suddenly be a speaker after spending one day on a taster programme.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

In the same way that you wouldn't necessarily trust somebody to be a counsellor when they've done a you know a one-off course I've seen advertised for£12.50 on Facebook. Yeah. You're not gonna be the best speaker if you are well actually you might be the best speaker, but you're not gonna get any stages if nobody teaches you how to get onto those stages in the first place. You can always go and create your own, of course. But it's about more than that, isn't it? Yeah. Way more. And I think the other thing I would say, by the way, I know we're talking about us a lot, there are, let me just be clear here, there are loads of really awesome speaker trainers out there. There are other speaker trainers I'd happily recommend. But one of the red flags for me is when you see that trainer marketing, does it look like their training is about the people they're there to support, or is it all about them? There's a question.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

I like your question.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yes, it's about personal brand, of course. But at some point, you have to be willing to hand the spotlight over to the people that you're training. If you want the spotlight on you all the time and you make sure it's always start shining on you, where's the care for the people you're there to train? It's not about you, it's about them.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

And that's a really good point because when we from my experience anyway, what I love about working with people when they're when they're doing speaker training is you can feel it when they connect with that audience, you know they're they're there to empower the people they're they're speaking to. And there's a certain energy about that. Yeah. I I don't know how to describe it, yeah, but any but any of you listening that have been in an audience, when that is present, whoever the speaker is, it is a magical thing. Yeah. It's a it's it's it's so much more even than the hair on the back of your arm standing up, it's or down the back of your neck. When they are there genuinely to serve. I've got a hair on the back of the neck because we're all, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

When they are there genuinely to serve and empower the audience, they're there to serve and empower.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And it's that it's something very special. And I think when you're in the presence of that, you all know. Any of you listening that have witnessed that, have felt that when you've been in a it could be a you could be in a big room with a thousand people in the audience, five thousand people, but you still feel like they are speaking to you. Yeah. And that is a beautiful moment. It's a bit like that bit when I talk about when when I'm working with people with their books, and there's a moment in that book when you read it and you're just like, this is I feel totally connected with this author. In the same way, I feel totally connected. It's the same thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

It's the power of storytelling, except with yours the the the sharing that power through the page, and with the stuff that I do and you bat me up on, it's it's sharing from a stage. Yeah. Page or the stage, it's still a story. Like it. Oh, that's a nice one. T-shirt task. We should do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah, we should, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

And the other great thing might go on the new wall. You could. The other great thing, of course, is that when you go into one of the programmes like ours.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Sorry, I just thought I would clarify. The wall I'm talking about is the wall in your studio with you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah, because it's the filming has stopped now.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yes, so just clarifying for anybody that's in here, what wall?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Sorry. A graffiti wall. Yeah, graffiti wall. A phobic graffiti wall. What was I saying? I've lost my phone now. Oh yeah. When you come along, all the stories, all the story arcs that you learn, you can use them to develop different talks. Yeah. But you are also developing, goodness knows how many months, years worth of content.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

And we have quick fire rounds, we make it so that you can't be really, really practiced for everything that we do. There's some off-the-cuff stuff, you'll just be kind of hot seated up to go and present.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

There's there's so much. And of course, we do pass on opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

We teach you about the PR, how to generate that. We teach you how to shape your talks. We teach you to really, really work out who you want to speak to and what stages. So we've probably been waffling on for a while now. So to start wrapping this up, Ash, what would be let's let's play tip tag.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Tip tag? Tip tag. Oh crumbs, okay. I thought, oh dear, I've got performance anxiety. Hang on a minute. I'm just I'm just um puffing out my chest. Watch out, everybody's hanging. I know thank goodness the video's not on still, because if somebody would have been blinded. Somebody's not a word. More like, no, actually, I'd more like bruise their feet these days. You wouldn't want that.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Perfectly placed. And awesomely off topic. Absolutely. So we'll go tip tip tip tip tip tip.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Oh, I signed.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

So, what's the first tip you would give to someone who wants to either improve their speaking or to get more gigs with their speaking or to become a speaker? We'll just quick fire tip between us and see what people can get from it. Believe in your story. Make sure that your story is accurate and no matter how much you feel it's your story to tell, you're not going to drop anybody else in hot water or legal action by telling it. Make sure that it's not libelous.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Look at the way you tell your story and think about the different way you can do that. I.e., you can use tense, tenses, past tense, present tense. You could like tell it from an awning or something like that. You might find tense. I think it there's different ways to tell it.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah. Recognize that if there's part of your story that you know needs to get across, but you're worried for whatever we reason that it's going to be too much for the audience or it's going to get great uncle Harry three times removed into trouble. Is there a way that you can put that part of your story into soft focus so that you still create the impact, but you're not giving away the detail? And sometimes actually less is more. Allow people to use their own minds and paint the picture without actually giving them a painting by numbers.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Think about timing. Sometimes we can come up with a great idea for a talk, but we're not in the right space for that. So maybe it's something that needs to be told, but it's not ready. It's still percolating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

There's an old adage about speaking from the scar and not from the wound. Now, I kind of disagree and agree with that one. Sometimes when you're genuinely in that place of pain, once you know how to work with that and work with that vulnerability, it can it can really add to your talk. But you have to be in a place where you are at least solid enough to not trigger yourself off the stage and to be aware enough to recognise when you are triggering your audience members. And if there are some trigger points, how to get that across to your audience in such a way that they know they're going to be safe or they have the opportunity to step out for that part and step back in when it's safe to do so again.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Lighten shade.

unknown 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

I say that for books, I say it for everything. A range of emotions, bring that to the fore in your talk. Lighten shade, think about how you can bring a bit of both, and always as well, please include what you can, a bit of humour. Does not go amiss. However professional you want to be. Sometimes we can lose sight of that. I think we almost become over serious with things, even with some of the more challenging topics. People, that's a great way to bond with your audience. So use a little bit of humour. And sometimes that can be laughing at yourself a bit too. Stay humble. So here's another tip. Sorry, Taz, I got carried away. Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Don't try to speak like a speaker. Where you might stand in the middle of the room and then make eye contact with everybody there. And wait until you get acknowledgement. Please don't try and speak like a speaker. You just sound like a bit of a twat. In fact, just to illustrate that, we were watching some YouTube footage not too long back by one of the main political parties, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Oh yeah, because by the time this comes out, it'll be near local.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

And the person doing the reporting clearly wasn't a trained reporter, it was a layperson speaking on behalf of a trained reporter?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Or do you mean a trained politician? No, don't.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

No, they weren't a trained reporter, but they were speaking as a layperson.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Oh yes, yes, I'm with you. Sorry, of course I.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Two camera.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

And they were trying so hard to speak like they thought a journalist speaking to the camera might, that they actually were really distracting.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

And they talked like that every time.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

And they made sure they had that sing song element going on all the way through. They did. And that was actually more off-putting and took people away from the really brilliant facts and issues they were bringing to the forefront and made them listen far too much to their their faux journalistic voice than pay attention to what was actually being said.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

I quite like that, Task. It's like, was it wick as well? Was it Wick as well?

SPEAKER_01 43:15

So no, don't try and sound like a speaker in the same way that if you're speaking to camera, don't try and sound like a telejournalist. There is a reason Jonathan Pye talks like that. It is satire. Do not be Jonathan Pye.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yes. I'll try to think something else. No, you've thrown me off now. Movement. Don't be afraid to use your stage and your stage presence. Get used to being comfortable with moving around a little bit when you can. I know, depending on what's going on on stage and the setup, I know you do that a lot. Not everybody will want to do that to that. But don't be afraid to familiarise yourself with that stage before you get on there and then use it to the best of your abilities. So when

SPEAKER_01 44:00

that's you know have a chat with the people behind the scenes that are doing all the lighting the sound and see whether you can do that that relates on to something else you'll probably go there next time absolutely understand if you're going to move on the stage how to use the stage how to set up visual we're still doing the thing where we can how do you set up visual anchor points so that the people are led into the different emotions according to where you're moving on the stage so yeah understand how to use a stage properly it's one of the things we train how to set up anchor points how to lead the audience in such a way that you take them emotionally and mentally on that journey with you from your physical movements also check out the sound system how's it going to work are you going to have a handheld mic or are you going to have a lapel mic or a what do you call the ones over the head ones a Kylie mic.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

A Kylie mic yeah we'll call it a Kylie mic not a furry mic.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

No not fairy mic we do have furry mics with us today but they're not the original.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

You can find out what you're going to be using because that also makes a huge difference. If you're somebody that does quite a bit of gesticulation for instance maybe a little bit more than you hate using a handheld mic I'm looking at you Taz I hate hate hate handheld mics when I'm speaking I find them far too restrictive. Whereas I quite like them I find that quite a comfort thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Something to grab hold of Taz oh what would the psychologist make of that one be aware of lighting as well massive props to our awesome photographer Vicky Head for this one who has taken to if she's she's taking my pictures of a as a speaking gig she's taken to looking where the lighting is falling on the stage and telling me which bits of the stage to avoid and which bits to spend more time in. But that's really really useful particularly if you're being filmed or there's a photographer in the room if there's part of the stage where the lights are just not shining and it's in shadow that's not going to provide the best results for you when it comes to the material evidence of your speaking.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

And that's actually just reminded me thanks to the lovely Vicky I've got quite a resting bitch face I think is the right remember to smile more because you know I do forget that I can get very serious and I can make some strange faces sometimes and that's one of my things that I'm working on to improve. So that can be joking aside if you've got a photographer there to be aware that you just want to pause and use that you know get to know that photographer a little bit before you go on stage if you can just to see how they work.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

If you've ever seen me speaking on stage and there's a photographer in the room I'll sometimes make a big ham of that and a play of looking at where the photographer is just to be able to get the audience to to recognise that when it's their turn to be on a stage.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

So it's our tag thing I think it's kind of gone off a little bit no I think I think we need to come back into it.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

So are we doing more? I'm going to start another tag how to get the gigs. What about how to get the gigs tag? Number one, make sure people know that you are a speaker what it is that you talk about what audiences you speak for and what the impact is going to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Okay. Number two I would say of course I'm going to bring it back to story but tell people about the gigs you've done and also more importantly the feedback you've had talk about those experiences on stage what it's been like the the highs the lows and everything in between just talk about it and use it on your posts regularly.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Practice practice practice I do not mean practising the same talk over and over again so that it's word perfect. I mean practice going to different events and speaking off the cuff until you get really used to it and also so that you get used to just collapsing any any any ouchy bits you have with a story that you might need to tell. So I will always say this it's a great idea to join a networking event event that a networking group that gives the opportunity for regular talks. It's one of the reasons I used to tell loads of people to join for networking still do and any other networking groups that happen to be coming up near you where you get the opportunity to speak use those as training grounds to get up there and deliver. And whenever you go and present a talk to a networking group treat it in just the same way that you would if you were going to go and speak in a big auditorium and go to everybody in that room afterwards if you've done a good job and ask them to leave you a testimonial on LinkedIn for that gig why? Because then when you want to lift lift the I'm a professional speaker you know lift some of those testimonials on your website or anywhere live you can link directly back to that person's profile which shows it's a real testimonial rather than Mrs X from Tunbridge Wells.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Very good. I'm going off on a slight tangent but it is also off topic it's not off topic but one of the things I was going to say as well is remember your friend is radio as well as other areas of promotion but that can be a big one. If you've got a particular topic that you're talking about one of your keynotes is something that is in the news whatever it is but always remember your local radio stations because they will be regularly looking for people to come on to their shows. BBC have obviously all their regional shows and that's always a good one. So if you've got something once you've done a talk send out a press release but also speak to them get in touch with those local radio shows and see if you can get on there that way using that as a way in if it's particularly if it's something that's in the news at the moment and it's pertinent. So for instance at the moment it might be something around mental health since lockdown there were lots of opportunities for people to talk about areas around mental health as there are now but particularly at that time so I think that's an important one to help build your PR.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Off the back of that if you have got a recording of a talk and you've said something in there that's particularly newsworthy we haven't got time to go into what is newsworthy today but maybe on another podcast. Provided you have permission from the event organiser or whoever recorded it remember to take a clip of that audio and perhaps go to your local BBC radio station via the BBC upload facility online upload that clip write a bit about it and you might just find that that appears on radio then hey presto you've immediately got that credibility stamp of as featured on BBC on your website and on your marketing materials.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Fantastic so I'm slowing down a bit is there anything else that you can just keep going I think Taz you did say about 10-15 minutes ago that we ought to wrap this up soon and I'm very aware that we may be on a very long podcast as much as they obviously know about to go and get those talks. Yes but if they can always have conversations with us further on if you'd like to hear anything else from us and you want to get a bit more advice do get in touch. Let us know what you know what you'd like to know around speaking. And obviously if you want to come and join us for Heart Speaking that's coming up next month. We've got a I think a couple of places left on that.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

We'll just about squeeze a few more in yeah absolutely so come and join us that's in Peterborough so pretty easy to get to on trains as well as yeah and also remember that we do run these regularly and we do also do one-to-one bespoke speaker training if needed as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

I think the big thing I want to leave you with is be aware of the stages that you want to get on and if you don't know research be aware of your topic your story and what that's actually going to do for the audience and from that point of view okay who's going to buy this and my final point and I say it so often never ever ever ever ever pay to speak. This morning when we left for the studio there were a couple of guys in our back garden who were topping our tree for us which had got a little bit unwieldy bless it. And guess what? Jinko Beloba guess what they did not pay us for the privilege of coming into our garden and cutting down parts of our tree even though we have quite a decent audience between us and we could have promoted them to lots of people because that's what they do for a living and they deserve to be paid. It's the same with your speaking it's your work it's not something that you should be paying somebody else to do. Do not pay to work fabulous. I think that's a perfect place to round up okay so I hope that's given you lots of advice if there's something else on speaking you want to cut want us to cover please get in touch through the awesomely off topic channels online or through mine Taz Thornton or yours.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Asha Clearwater and it just went like that she nudged me then because I need there was a slight delay there too. It's good night from and it's good night from him her me you them whatever I don't know but it's good night.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Anyway until next time we will see you next Tuesday you've been listening to Autumnly Off Topic if you've enjoyed this hit follow and subscribe and if you want more come and find Autumnly Off Topic on social media that's where all the extra bits live. Stay awesome stay off topic and we'll see you next time