🎙️ S2 Episode 4: Myth-Busting: What Nobody Tells You About Visibility

🎙️ Episode 4: Myth-Busting Visibility - What Nobody Tells You

Everyone bangs on about visibility like it’s the golden ticket.

Show up. Go viral. Get a TEDx talk. Land some PR. Build a following.

Job done… right?

Not quite.

In this episode, we’re getting honest about the side of visibility that doesn’t make the highlight reel. The stuff people don’t warn you about. The expectations that don’t match reality. And the bits that can feel brilliant one minute and deeply uncomfortable the next.

We talk about:

•  Why “just showing up” isn’t a strategy 
•  The truth about TEDx talks, PR, and going viral 
•  What visibility actually looks like behind the scenes 
•  Being recognised in real life (and why it can feel a bit weird) 
•  Trolls, backlash, and having your values out in the open 
•  Why one big moment won’t build your business 
•  The quieter, more sustainable way to grow your visibility 

There’s also a story in here about a client who found Taz through a random lockdown interview with Heather Peace - which pretty much sums up the real message of this episode: visibility doesn’t always work the way you think it will.

It’s not about one big break. It’s about consistency, connection, and actually giving a shit about the people you’re here to serve.

Quick note: this episode was recorded on 10th April, so when we mention Taz’s birthday being “tomorrow”, that was true at the time… just not when you’re listening!

If visibility has ever felt confusing, frustrating, or a bit like smoke and mirrors, this one’s for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to Awesomely Off Topic. Books, brands, business and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. I'm Taz and Asher. Now let's get into it. Welcome to Awesomely Off Topic. Hello, good to be back. Today we are going to go a little bit broader again. We want to talk about the visibility myth that nobody wants to admit. What do you think about visibility of the massive myths?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

That basically you can be you can just be visible and there's no consequences with it. So you can just be you can be really famous and really well known, but there's going to be no consequences from that. That's the first thing I think. It's all roses round the door and it's very exciting, which it can be, of course. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I also think that people think it's just about showing up. You just got to show up and do whatever. I'm not sure that's entirely true either. There are so many people. One of the things that springs to mind immediately for me, and this is because you used to run TEDx events, used to create them. A few years ago now, but yeah, all good. I've spoken, I've done three different TED talks, not just at your event, obviously, plus compared at Fourth. And so many people think that as soon as they get a TED talk, they're just gonna explode and get millions of followers. And it doesn't work like that. Because how many TED talks are uploaded onto that?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Oh my goodness, thousands and thousands and thousands, and yeah, and actually they're really strict guidelines with TED as well on what you can and can't do. Yeah. So there are a few that have kind of you know things on on the videos before, you know, and they might they might change it around a little bit and change.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Sometimes they'll change a title or they'll flag it saying it doesn't abide to Ted's role. Sometimes they won't allow the things. You can't just turn up and turn and tell an inspirational life story. But the other thing that and I found this out when I was trying to think, well, well, I've got these these talks out there now, how do I promote them? And having spoken to a few um growth hackers, shall we say, there are an awful lot of people out there with things like TED talks who pay people very, very cheaply to just keep watching their video and repeat over and over and over and over for Ted.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Imagine doing that for a job, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, but all they've got to do is just keep it going in the background and then just click repeat. Yeah. I didn't know that. And it's something like until you told me always gear watch. It's really daft things. So again, doing a TED talk, unless you happen to be lucky enough to be curated by Ted and pushed out, you're not gonna suddenly get really famous by it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, that's a really good point, actually, because I've seen lots of people that, and also, you know, very much so, even with the events themselves, particularly with the TEDx events, which are the kind of more local community-based events as well, which are fantastic events, yeah. But you know, it really depends on remember, that's all run vi voluntarily as well. So people do that, they're not being paid to do it. Yeah, and there's some great opportunities there, but it's not necessarily going to catapult you into that stratosphere of everybody knowing you and having you know having that big kind of A-lister vibe going on. It's about managing your expectations, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So do you remember the first TED talk I think that's what I was thinking about. The first TED talk I got invited to to present. I hadn't applied for it, I was asked to to turn up. Somebody had dropped out, and I said, Well, we know you, you're a good speaker, will you gone? And of course, I had these ideas in my head of you know a black box stage and the big TED letters and a big studio audience. And I turned up, and we were kind of on little chairs in the foyer of a big country mansion with the stairs just going up there. There was TEDx printed out on a piece of corrugated plastic just propped up at the back, and literally a projector sitting up there that was sitting on a table that was in view of all the videoing being done as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah, I always remember the TEDx sign that was just like on the ground at a jaunty angle. Propped to the ground. It wasn't, it was propped around, it was, wasn't it? It was propped. And I was like, wow. And obviously, we've run a lot of events over the years, and I I wouldn't let that happen at mine. But but so that's the thing you don't hey, I'm still really, really grateful for the opportunity. Absolutely. But it just wasn't what I was expecting. Not at all. So you've got to kind of watch those expectations, haven't you? So first and you know, firstly, where it's gonna be, what sort of vibe is it gonna have. Um, if it's a curator, you know, it's good to ask them about if you when you get through, hopefully you've got to go through the whole process of actually having your talk accepted. Then when you go in, hopefully there'll be a chance to rehearse, ideally, in the space itself, so you can have a look at the space, get a feeling for what it's gonna be like on the day. Yeah, because that will give you an idea too. You know, there's lots of different types of venues, lots of people go for theatres. I certainly did with my first one. I had a box theatre in Peterborough, which was great, and then we used uh recall.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Visibility was important for you and how you showed up to your audience was important and what you did for your speakers. Yeah, and there's something very special about those TEDx letters. There is, there is about the big letters unless you lean on them and they start to go, I didn't know about that until after.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

She told me that afterwards because they knew that when Taz happened to do that by mistake, a quickly ad, they didn't tell me because they she said, Don't tell us, you'll go absolutely bonkers. And I would I would have done because it was the day of I think it was the day of the event.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Or the day before. A few of us were going and getting our pictures taken with the letters with the classic lean over the E.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

And the E just went ah it should have been just X.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Anyway, let's let's pull ourselves back in because this is all about visibility myths. So, what else out there would we talk about in terms of visibility myths? What about this idea that wouldn't it be wonderful if everybody recognised you?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Well, you've had some experiences of that, haven't you? I do remember, and the thing is you can't guarantee when if that's gonna happen, when it's gonna happen, and where you're gonna be. So obviously, you had a really interesting experience, didn't you? I always remember that. We're sitting in a certain chicken restaurant, should we say Nando's Nando's, and you were just tucking into your lunch.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah. And I didn't even know about it until afterwards. So somebody's tagged me on Facebook, what's that? And somebody had literally been into Nando's, recognised me from I don't know, from TV or social or something, or back of a book, I don't know. Taken a picture of me, eating my Nando's, posted it on Facebook with this note saying, Oh my god, I saw Taz Thornton today, but I didn't dare say hello. And it's just weird. And you know, when you look at the kind of recognition that you and I have, that's minuscule. It's pimprick. But it's not unusual for us to be walking around somewhere and for somebody to say to to just say, Oh, excuse me, are you? Yeah. And normally, normally they're right. It's happened abroad, it's happened in Lanzarote. Yeah. It's happened in Athens. Yeah. It's happened, and in this country a lot. And not just if we're the kind of personal development events or big business events.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

We might just be walking around, you know, doing touristy things or going for lunch or something. We might be having a not that we have domestic tass, really, very often, as she says. We don't generally, but occasionally that will happen. We might not be on our best behaviour. I certainly can uh uh not be on my best behaviour sometimes. Suddenly you've got somebody saying, Oh, you get that. I don't know, yeah, exactly. And then it's like, oh dear, I better put the put the old um.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And honestly, so many times I've had conversations with people, then walked away, and Ash just said, Who was that? I've got I don't know. Because that's the other thing in the world of social media, isn't it? Once you start to build up a bit of a brand, and again, mine is tiny compared to people who are actually properly famous. Yeah, it's it's bizarre, but that feeling that is it safe for me to go out without my makeup on, without my bra on, and just looking like a bit of a mistake. Can I do that? And it's it is very, very weird. Been walking around events and people have I was at a Mind Body Spirit Festival once. And somebody started shouting, Taz, Taz, Taz, from from like five rows away. No idea who it was. So it's it's very strange that that that world of social media, and some of you listening to this will have surely experienced this as well, where you meet someone and they say, Oh hi, hi, yeah, we're Facebook friends, and you've no idea what who they are.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

But you don't want to be.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Just be polite, smile, and say, Hi, lovely to meet to see you. Yeah. Lovely to meet you finally. And that's a tiny, tiny, tiny thing. Yeah, so how that is for people that have got, you know, lots and even more followers and even more, you know, you know, visibility. Yeah. So there's so much to think about, isn't there? It's not all and it's not all roses around the door. Sometimes it can come with, you know, other consequences too. And I've talked about this before.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I remember when I first started working with the personal trainer quite a few years back now, and after I'd been working with him for a while, he confessed that he didn't think I was going to show up. And I went, why? And he said, 'cause I I see you as a celebrity, you're like famous, aren't you? And you know, I thought it was just my mates winding me up. I don't see myself in that way.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I certainly don't see you in that way. Why not? It's my birthday tomorrow. I know it is. Sorry, Taz, that's a bit rude, wasn't it? Harsh but fair.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

But it is, once you start to build your following, you will get recognised, and that's bro can be brilliant for your business, but also it can get a little bit weird. By the same token, what about visibility in terms of business again, but in terms of building up your personal brand so that people want to come and work with you, so that you don't have to go and pitch anymore and people just go, I want to work with that person.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I think it's firstly, this is such a cliche for me, it's about being yourself, being human. If things aren't going quite as you expected them to, particularly if you're at an event, for instance, say you're speaking at an event or you're at an event doing some sort of workshop, something like that, and things don't go. A common one is tech, isn't it? Tech issues or something like that. And a lot of people I see kind of trying to hide the fact that things aren't going as they expected them to. And I think you win so many more, you know, applaudits for actually being really human and saying, really sorry, folks, but this is going on at the moment, just bear with us, you know, and have a little bit and relate, you know, relatability with your audience. That really grow grows from doing that. You know, I wouldn't advise you do that deliberately, but if things like that happen, that can actually be a really positive thing. Keep it real. Longer term. Yeah, keep it real.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, never try and fall in, never fall into that trap of thinking that you've got to know everything. There's if somebody asks you a question and you don't know, there's nothing wrong with saying, Do you know what? I don't know, but I will find out and come back to you. It's only in the follow-up, isn't it? But one of the things to go off is a slight tangent here I wanted to talk about is when we talk about building visibility and personal brand, because that's how people are going to find you and want to work with you. Most people assume that it's all to do with the with the kind of funnels that we're we're taught to believe in. And I want to tell you a story about one of my clients I'm working with now, is wonderful. She's one of the best people I've ever coached, in that she's really, really eager. She knows what she doesn't know, uh, and she will action everything after every call with such enthusiasm. It's stunning. It's as a coach, it's beautiful to work with. But I remember when I was saying to her, Well, can I ask, how did you find me? What made you want to work with me? Had you seen some other videos, had you read my book? No one got a clue who you were. Okay, so of all the ginger winks in all the world, but you know, of all the coaches across the country, why me? And she said, I'm actually a massive Heather Peace fan, and I saw a video of Heather Peace where you were interviewing her, and I looked you up from there. Amazing. So you remember during lockdown, I did that series of TAD Talks Mental Health where I was interviewing lots of different celebrities about how they were getting through lockdown and what their advice was to keep your spirits up. Heather was one of those.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Should you, just for some of our listeners who may not know in the, you know, very much I know exactly, but she's an amazing actress.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

She's an actress, you've seen her in a lot of the the bigger dramas and soaps over here. She's been in EastEnders, Waterloo, right. Oh, she's been in loads and loads and loads of stuff. Um, she's also a singer, so she's got albums out and stuff as well. Yeah, look her up if you haven't found her the piece yet. She's amazing. But that just goes to show that visibility is visibility, and it's gonna work, it's gonna build your brand, even if it is not something as specific as, you know, a funnel or an email sequence. Showing up is showing up.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, totally agree with that. Really good point, isn't it? So, I mean, we've also got to think about the I suppose the safety aspect of visibility. When we talk about that, can you explain a little bit what you mean by that? Because that's something that you were talking about earlier, wasn't it? When we were having a chat before the show, as it were, before the broadcast.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

So I don't broadcast their address, for instance. And that's a sensible move for anybody. Yeah. But I'm quite careful to not be really specific about where we live or where we're going all the time. You know, because I don't want we have had situations in the past where people have fixated a little bit, it doesn't happen very often, and again, for us it's tiny, but it's not like we've had somebody breaking in and sitting on the bed and staring at us or anything, but we have had situations where people have really fixated and seen a lot more than has ever been there.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Um, and not just for me, that's happened with both of us doing this thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah, it has, yeah. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

So I'm quite careful. I don't very often want people to just be able to turn up at the front door. So, yeah, safety. And if you've put something out online that you know is gonna be contentious, and frankly, unless you want to be a beige person, and I've said before I've said before so many times, yeah, beige isn't gonna offend anybody, but it's nobody's favourite colour either. Unless you are gonna be beige and try to blend into the background, don't blend, you're not a nutri-bullet. You're gonna rattle cages and you're gonna upset people. So you've got to be prepared for that as well. That sometimes your opinion is going to upset people, and they will do their damnedest to try and bring you down a peg up to you.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah, it's that thinking that you want everybody to like you, that's a human thing. We all want people to like us, but it's about that, it's that being lone versus being like thing, isn't it? Yeah, it's it, you know, you've got to weigh that up because there are gonna be people. We all know that however much we think, you know, we can be a wonderful human being, we can't understand why people would have problems with us, you know, with what we're saying sometimes. We've got to stick our neck above the parapet and go for it and say things that are gonna upset people. Yeah. You know, not in a deliberate way, but we might have different views on things that are gonna threaten people.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

You are then gonna get trolled. And I remember a piece of advice somebody gave me years ago, and it's really stuck with me, and that's that you always have people who don't like you online, you always have trolls. But when you first set out and nobody really knows who you are, the per in percentage terms it's the same number, but your numbers are so small that you don't notice them. As you grow, your numbers get bigger. The percentage of people who don't like you doesn't change in percentage terms, but it does become more noticeable. Yeah, that's a good point. And I think that's really true. And this particularly comes to light, I think. If you're gonna talk about your values, so we might talk about equality, equity, LGBTQIA rights, particularly with the amount of trans people have been being really battered these past few years, it's hideous. And we'll often speak out in favour of those, and that then taps into politics. There are a lot of people out there who say don't ever talk about politics, and I think that's rubbish personally, because my politics are tied into my values. So I do talk about politics, not to the point of being a massive campaigner, but a few years back when Nigel Farage was talking about the most stable relationships being those between a man and a woman, and it was based on a piece of some some stats that were completely taken out of context, and they're just it just wasn't fair. And we recorded an off-the-cuff video about it, didn't we? It was only last year, wasn't it? It was last year, yeah. Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Only last year. We were in Greece, weren't we, at the time?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

We recorded an off-the-cuff video about it, and it was really just a tongue-in-cheek, dear Nigel. And just we've been together for X amount of years, you know, we give to charity, we put back into the community, we do our best to make a positive difference. We are more stable and settled than a lot of the heterosexual couples we know. And I don't think actually what makes a couple stable has anything to do with gender. Yeah. And this video went bonkers. It really it proper went viral across Instagram and across TikTok, but particularly Instagram. And you can imagine some of the comments we got in that. Yeah. We had some really nasty comments in that. And some of them, you know, you might think, I've got skin thicker than a rhino, so I promise you I haven't, I'm a big softie. And some of it really hurt. But that's not going to stop me showing up. But the reason I talk about that is even if you think you are not talking about your political allegiances online, you need to remember how much of your personal footprint is visible. So tied into that, I was speaking at an event, and it was an event where we did some personal brand training. Part of that personal brand training was looking at deliberately contentious public figures and looking at which ones we aligned with and which ones we didn't. And good old Niggle was one of those. And the majority of people in the room didn't want to align with Nigel, and a couple of people did. And you know, I flippantly a couple of times were, well, I'm in the right room. It's just flippant. There's no harm. No harm, no foul. But it turned out one person at the front of the room actually knew Nigel personally. And I'm sure it's no coincidence that this was happening at the same time that that video was going viral. And we, that video was going so viral that there were very obviously some troll farms being paid each time it's a s each time it hit a particular number, we got another wave and so many fake accounts. It does happen, believe me. And anyway, everything was fine, great feedback at the time. And then after the event, it turned out that this one person caused a real stink about me and was saying things that were not fair and not true.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

I'm pausing to think.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And they'd been making a big play about how you should never bring politics into anything, and I'd made it political. There were people from all political persuasions in that talk. But what was really fascinating when she was trying to paint me as this terrible, terrible person, when I went and looked at her social media profile, I'm deliberately not meant naming any namesakes, it's not fair. But I wanted to see what was going on and where this cat where this very obvious campaign, all being stirred up from this one place, was coming from. And when I went and looked at a public social media footprint, a massive chunk of things like the Facebook groups that she was affiliated with were really awful right-wing groups, talking anti-LGBT, anti-trans, the the kind of the the far right that we talk about in the Americas, lots of far right hate groups. That makes it really obvious. So the reason the reason I say this to you is that if you think you're keeping politics out of things online, be aware that every time you are going on to Facebook, Insta, wherever you're playing around, every time you go and click on something, particularly if you go and follow or like or support, if you haven't got everything really, really locked down, people can go and see who you are supporting. And that was a really powerful realisation for me in that moment because suddenly I understood why one person was trying to create this smear campaign.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

And it all suddenly made sense, and I was able to gather that information and say, look, two were organisers.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah. And it's just it was fascinating, wasn't it? As much as it was shocking at times. Yeah. I can remember sitting in Greece, having a cupper, I think, one day and looking at all the comments coming through. And must say the majority were really positive and lovely, some beautiful, beautiful comments. But you could see, as you said, those waves of troll trolling were coming, you know, in waves, and then you get another load and another load. And I think I forget how many you know, likes we got from that, it was thousands and thousands, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Tens and tens and tens of thousands.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah, but it was a really interesting experience to be on the end of that. Even from what just one was it 54-second video, I think, or something, wasn't it? Something like that, right? And again, it has a ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

And that's not to go, woe is me, woe is me. This is just to demonstrate that if you are gonna so many people are like if I could just go viral, I just need to go viral and that'll do it for me in the same way. If I just get a TED talk, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't. You might get recognised, but not necessarily, you know, for what you do as a business.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

So you you've got to be, number one, be aware that just going viral in whatever form and just having a platform is not going to suddenly skyrocket your audience. And honestly, do you want it to? Because if you really leap up that quickly, that's not sustainable. It's better to have a steady, steady growth, yeah. An organic growth. But but also the flip side of visibility is that everything online leaves a footprint. So just remember, no matter how careful you think you are being, most people now are searchable. And when you are searchable, that means your values, your allegiances, your likes, your dislikes, the things you support, the things you are anti are very often fairly easy to turf up and look at. So just be aware. Visibility is not all that it's cracked up to be. And then that turns into again the the being known versus being liked. You said a moment ago that most people just like to be liked.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, of course you do. It's human nature, isn't it? You want everybody to like you, I certainly do. And that can hold you back in so many ways as well, can't it? We've had that discussion so many times, particularly with my own personal brand, because we're working on that at the moment to get it a little bit more up because it's very much, hasn't it, it's been used to be there. Yeah, I am. I mean, I'm in a lovely position where I've got lots of work coming in, which is keeping me busy, which is wonderful, but I'm so used to promoting other people. It's the classic, anybody out there that's in PR, particularly, you know, creatives that are used to creating things for other people in those service-led industries, actually creating it for you can be quite a challenge, I think. It certainly is for me. So one of the things we're trying to do at the moment is to get my profile up a bit more and work on that. And there there are times when I feel really awkward about that because I'm so used to showcasing my clients.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

And I also know there have been a few points you've really wanted to talk out to speak out about, particularly on the old trans issues. You've really wanted to speak out to support our trans families, brothers, sisters, yeah, and and those who identify as neither brother nor sister. And so often you've stopped yourself because you've said, Oh, I'm gonna get a load of hate for that, aren't I?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Um yeah, and I confess to that. I mean I have said that several times in the last couple of years because of where I've been with my mental health. Can I actually work, can I work through that? Can I be strong through this? And that sounds really wussy, and I apologize for anybody listening that is tr from the trans community, but you know, I'm hoping I will change that. I am changing it gradually, but it's that, and you've got to think about those things and the repercussions when you when you make that decision. But that is so part of my value set. Everybody deserves a chance to just be who they are and to be loved and everything else. It's really simple, it's nothing, you know, terribly technical, it's just you know, love for everyone. And um, so yeah, it is a very a very close to my heart kind of thing because I've I've met people that have gone through that, not experienced that positive, you know, environment. So many people that we know that are going through, even now, going through a lot of shit basically that they so do not deserve, and they are wonderful human beings. So, yeah, so you're right, you've got to you've got to s you've got to stick your what's the phrase, your flag to the mast. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

You've got to be brave enough to put your head up, you know, above the parapet. Parapet.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And people might take pot shots at it, but you know, people say it's it's uh lonely at the top. Yeah, but it's also really crowded at the bottom. Um but it's not it's not even about that for me. It's not an ego thing. It's about if you if you feel that you are here for a reason and you have a message or a teaching or something to give to the world, you have to be ready and able and willing to reach more people. So that's that percentage thing in in reverse. Yeah. You know, when you first start out, the percentage, in percentage terms, the the amount of people you can positively influence or support or cheerlead for is tiny. But then you need to think, well, if if my mission is to spread this message to help these people, you've got to find bigger and bigger platforms. And I do believe we need to do that ethically. I don't believe in some of the visibility tactics like I see, like being deliberately controversial or causing upset just in order to create the the kind of argument on the thread which creates virality. I don't like that at all. I think there's enough shit in the world without deliberately creating more of it. But also, you're not going to make an impact if you're not willing to make an impact.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah, and you've said that to me, haven't you, so many times of late, certainly in the last couple of years. You say, come on, you know, stand up stand up and actually, you know, talk out, speak out. And that and it and it can be difficult, it can feel really scary. And I'm you know, I'm on the I'm on the side of the wuss, because that is me. I confess I am a wuss. But but it is, it's so important to get into that space where you feel able to do that because you know, being being true to your values and to what you believe in.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

That in itself can be scary because so many of us grow up in a family that don't necessarily share our values. Yeah. And it can be much more comfortable to allow them to think, your your family and your peers to allow them to think that you do share their values and just secretly harm secretly vote for somebody else, for instance.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had that discussion many times, haven't we? And certainly with other things with with me and regarding religion and the church and things as well, which probably not to go into today, but maybe that's another podcast at some point. But it's it's sticking staying true to who you are and your value sets and being willing to go out there and put yourself forward and speak your truth. And that's such become such a cliche, hasn't it? Speak your truth. You know, it's everybody needs to speak the truth.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Even if your voice speaks your voice shakes. Speak your truth, even if your voice shakes.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Who said that? I did. Is that your quote? Yeah. You should have that on a t-shirt. That needs to go into the Taz the Taz t-shirt. I think I do know that. Do you? I think it's on some of the hot speakers. That's definitely a sackable offence or even a divorceable offence now, guys. I'm really in trouble because I shouldn't have known that, shouldn't I?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Bit.ly forward slash Tazmerch, capital T, capital N.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

I'm glad you said that because I wouldn't have remembered. Goodness me. I'm not doing so well, and it's your birthday tomorrow, aren't I? A terrible wife. I don't know. I think though, to to bring it back to visibility.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Visibility is definitely important in building your brand and building your business. And if you want to get to that point where genuinely you don't have to be constantly out on a pitch fest and people do start to recognise you and come to you and want to work with you, visibility is important. But that does not I think there are a lot of ideas around visibility that are the cliche. So if your idea of getting visible is, you know, getting getting to be interviewed by Oprah Winfrey, for instance, or getting to, I don't know, go and be warm up for Tony Robbins or whatever it is. You want to do according to who it is you like. You know, maybe you want to go and support your favourite band if if music's your fan. There's nothing wrong with having those big, scary, hairy goals. I love them. But also remember that visibility kind of comes in stages and in waves. So what about first getting visible in your own community? And to bring in that beautiful Maya Angelou quote, or to paraphrase something along the lines of people might not remember your name or but people will always remember the way you made them feel. So what if you start there? What if you start your visibility stri you're striving for more visibility with something that something that makes a genuine difference at a grassroots level? So when I've when I was first starting out and I was running workshops at a community level to help people who'd been through domestic abuse, for instance. Or from a business point of view, when I joined a business network at my and it was one of the global ones, for N when it was when it was still under Bran Burton. And I had this aim to be able to walk into any foren event anywhere in the country and be recognised without needing my lane badge. I remember that. Yeah. And I set myself these little step goals. And I think that's that can be way more impactful than putting all your eggs in the big fame basket.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

That also takes a lot of pressure off, doesn't it? Because if that's what there's nothing wrong with aiming that high, absolutely not. But if you're like me and you're kind of, you know, a bit of a uh how would I say an extrovert an introverted extrovert. No, an extroverted what do I mean? What do I mean, Taz? So I'm kind of an introvert, but I'm trying to be extrovert. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I always say that I am an introvert who has learned to appear to be extrovert, but I think you're more of an extrovert than I am. Really? Yeah. Don't know what you mean. You're a much better conversationalist than I am for starters.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

I don't know. I'm just looking at my desk and what's on my desk currently. It's just out of shock. It's out of shock. Ah, she's got her positive poo on the desk. I have. It says, let me for the listeners that can't see us on here, positive poo. I may be a tiny poo, but I believe in you. Go do your shit. Go do epic shit. I know exactly. Um, so I don't know why you would think I'm a bit more of an extrovert than you. I think we're pretty equal on that.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Because you're much better. If we go to something like a networking event, for instance, I hate the free networking element that puts me completely out of my comf comfort zone, and I just I'll be the one standing up a corner pretending I've got something really important to do on my phone. Whereas you'll just be merrily popping around and chipping through walls or shoulders saying, Hi, what do you do? I'm Asher, hello.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah, but sometimes I have the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Have you ever wanted to write a book?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, yeah, I don't sometimes I'm not that, you know, direct and blunt, but usually I'll go in and sometimes I'll just not elbow in, but I'll go in and I'll and I'll have backs to me. That's the worst bit is getting to that when you get to that point and you've got a sea of backs and just kind of gradually working your way in. I'm doing a funny little movement now for anybody that's listening as opposed to watching, because we're also filming today. So I'm doing this little weird little shuffle to get into the space, and then I start gradually starting to worm my way in a bit. But I don't I don't feel comfortable doing that, you know. That's still quite if I'm not having a good day, then I'll really struggle with that and I will just I will lurk. I'm a great lurker. So sometimes my lurking will allow me to just get into the kind of inner echelons of the well, there's a good way of saying that.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

I've always thought you were very good lurking.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Oh, good lurking, thank you. Bless you. I think you're due for an eye test. But I think you, yeah, I think so. So in terms of visibility, as in go into things like networking events, I find that sometimes really difficult. Even online, even the online ones, I stri if I'm not having a good day, I can struggle with that. I've got out of the habit of doing it, of course. So it's like anything, isn't it? You could need to kind of keep keep going for it until your confidence comes up a bit. But I always find that a bit difficult. So I either go really over the top and I'll just go in and say, hello, I'm Asher from Turkboys Tiger. Yeah, and I'll spend time at Panker. My friend, yeah, my friend, my friend at well, friend, my friend, my best friend from school, her boyfriend Stuart, always used to call me the squiggly voice at the end of the phone on cartoons. You know, go blah blah blah because I do that. So I can actually just over-talk and over-share. That's another thing I do quite regularly, which is not significant. Oh, you've got ADHD. So so there's that. But it's really interesting because sometimes I'll waffle on, I'll think it's not significant at all. And then I'll meet somebody, say, three or four months later, and they'll say, Oh, Ashra, it's lovely to see you again. I loved having that chat about, and I'll have no recollection at all. So I just smile and go, Oh yes, but I'm thinking I don't remember saying that. But it obviously stays, and sometimes it works in my favour.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

So it always amazes me which bits people remember from these podcasts and really take take home. Yeah. That I'll have forgotten saying that one thing. And yet for somebody else it's made a real impact.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Can you think of any particular on any of the episodes where we've done that? And you're gonna go very quiet now, aren't you? So I'm gonna have to fill, fill, poor old Phil. I mean that would be because that's a you're right, we have come out with some crackers sometimes, aren't we? And I for us it's like we don't even think twice about it. And then somebody else will say, That really sat with me, and I've really sat with that. Did I? I know, we can't think of any now, can we? Of course, because it's like it won't put you on the spot. But yeah, but so so yeah, the whole thing around visibility in terms of going out there and being physically in a in a place in a networking space. I find that really quite difficult. But I've got so that's what I meant about pushing my introvert out.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Even when we're in the supermarket, though, you will always go out of your way to make conversation at the checkout and try and make the cashier laugh. And you always make your way to a real human instead of the.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

I hate the automatic checkouts because for goodness sake, there's a real human there. I might find out their life story in two minutes, five minutes. I bet the people behind me in the queue absolutely hate me because I delay them. But I will stand there and just ask, how's you know, they'll start, how's your day? And I'll say, Yeah, it's great. Oh, yeah, what about you? Blah, blah, blah. And then you'll be ready, ready at the door with the car keys, ready to go home, and I'm still chatting. So that's Or if we get onto a plane. If I get onto a plane to go away. But I get nervous because I'm not a great flyer, so that's just kind of my coping mechanism, I think, really. Distracting.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

I'm in my cocoon then. I'm off duty, I can stop.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And you will be making conversation with the person. Just like that. Actually, that's far more intelligent than my company.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Offering them my sweets and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah. Oh yeah. Always your mint imperials. Yeah, offer my mint imperials. Well, it used to be on planes years ago, I don't think we don't do it now, do they? Suck a mint imperial. So your ears don't pop. Yeah, so your ears don't pop, you suck a sweet. Yeah. Yeah. A sweet. I just enunciate that. So before we wrap up. Yes, sorry. Going off topic, great.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

What are the routes to visibility that most people believe they need to be doing and strive for? I mean, books is an obvious one.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Oh, just well, of course, you've you've stolen it now, because I was gonna say that. So now what do I say? You can go with the next one. If you take mine. No, say some more about it. That was an opening to talk about. Oh, okay, oh okay, then sorry, I didn't take the hint then, did I? Again, after all these years, it's been a long day, Taz. It's quite late at night. It's past my bedtime.

unknown 35:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Well, books are so sometimes undervalued, you know. We I think, particularly because we think now, firstly, printed book or so, you know, last century, but they're so adaptable. Now you can print a book so quickly, you can adapt it, you can do a second edition, a third edition. If you do a micro book, I've talked about that in earlier episodes, they are fantastic little gems of information. Have we got any behind us? Here's one I prepared earlier. Those were looking at the video. Yes, and those that are Taz is displaying one of my micro books. This particular one is the little book of content prompts for coaches, available on Amazon at a very reasonable price of£6.99 UK pounds. But it was, yeah, these are great little midget gems. Four inches by six inches. Yeah, exactly. I can't possibly comment on that. But they are really, they're a different way of writing a book, and it takes a different kind of skill set in a way, but it's really easy to do. They're so easy to adapt, to update, so easy to produce, quick to produce. It's a really good exercise to get into the habit of writing micro books. One of my clients is now on her third or fourth one, I think, fourth one. You've written three, I think, haven't you? Maybe four. I don't know. I've got I've written two, I've got another one on the way. I've written some. But they're a great marketing tool because they the size of them.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

One of your clients has just gone live with one today and it's just sitting back. She has.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Well done, Alice instead. Yes, she has. Yay! So a little book of spirit whispers, isn't it? Yes, I think. Goodness me, don't don't I'm sorry, I was still on that. I was what I was gonna say was they're a really easy way to get your visibility up. They don't cost the earth to do. If you want any advice on that, give me a shout, get in contact. Why are they gonna instantly make you visible? No, you've got to do something with them, haven't you? You can't just do them and leave them there on the shelf. You know, what do what's the expression about shelf not shelf life? What do I mean? What's the expression? Self-development. That's the one, that's what I was thinking of. You've got to get out and take them with you everywhere, or something like that. You can pop it in your handbag, in your back pocket, even, take it to a networking event, have it as a, you know, something to, you know, get people talking about your business and your what you do, you know, all sorts of opportunities with these.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

So it's not necessarily instant fame, but they do open doors. Yeah, they certainly do. And particularly talking points, they're great talking points. Also, particularly for another one of those things that everybody thinks they've got to do to get the visibility to get on stage and get the proper paid speaking gigs, you know. There are so many events now that won't even entertain you, won't even entertain you if if you've not written a book. So it opens or opens doors. They can be great for credibility.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah, and whether it's a it's a little midget gem like these, micro book or a bigger book, it's all really good. I've got a client at the moment who's just written part memoir, part journal, part business book. It's gonna be an absolute cracker. But it again, that's opening so many doors for her already. Already she's having opportunities that she wouldn't have had six months ago. So it's a great starting point. And of course, because you can self-publish now, you can get them out really quickly and go on to your next project. Yeah. And of course, using things like you know, all the tech that we've got now, you can use your your voice notes on your phone if you haven't got time to sit in front of a laptop and type away for half a day, you can do that too. So that's what I love about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Don't just resort to using Chat GPT to write your books for us. It is obvious, I promise. Yeah, please don't use hotels.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Yeah, so they're really good. That's a really easy way in for visibility.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

But again, with all of these visibility things, they're not gonna instantly make you visible to millions of people or make you have you make an impact. They open doors. So again, getting onto a stage, talking to thousands of people, hundreds of people, or even a small group of 10, 15, or 20. It's not instantly going to make you memorable or instantly bring you business. It's what you do when you're there. It's how much you engage with that audience, it's how well you can command the stage, it's how much your voice and your words carry impact and relatability, and it's what you do with the audience afterwards. Do you hang around and talk to people? Do you send anything out for them? Do you find a way to keep in touch and keep that relationship going? Or do you just turn up, say your piece, and start off again?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah, it's keeping it real, isn't it? It's what we talked about earlier, that relatability you've just spoken about. It's so important. Yeah. Rather than just right, I've done my gig now, if it's a speaking gig, off I go, spend time, it's another great networking opportunity. And people remember that. People really remember that. And again, if you've got one of those little micro books, that could be just a free giveaway to that person in that moment, and they will remember you for that. And also some of the things that you've said to them, of course, it's those messages that you leave with them. So it's a really nice one. We've love speaking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Sorry, we've got PR with our old hats on. Oh, goodness, if you just get a piece of PR in the mainstream magazine, that's it, you'll be made. No, you won't. No, you won't. We have, when we used to run a PR business, we've got brilliant coverage on in on all kinds of local, regional, national TV, radio magazines, glossies, the the lot. You're not going to instantly become famous from a good from one good piece of PR. It's about showing up regularly. You know, I was one of one of the publications I'd always wanted to be featured in was Psychologies. And I was listed and quoted as one of their one of their experts a few editions back. I was like, yay! But it's what I do with that. It's still up to me to tell people that's out there. You know, it's up to you to to show people. If you've got PR anywhere, if you've had PR anywhere, if you've been on TV, on radio, newspapers, including your local one, online, any on any websites with with decent footfall and credibility, where on your brand anywhere are you showing people where you've been featured in and therefore are trusted by?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

And also it's about repeating that. Some of it's going to be evergreen content, so you're going to be able to take that out occasionally and say, look at this, I remember the time when I did this, I wrote this, these points are still pertinent, they're still relevant for my audience now. How can I, you know, use it again, recycle it, recycle your content. Yeah. Because that makes such a difference. And sometimes you'll get a hit just by tweaking it and the way you present it can make a huge difference. You'll get a different type of audience or a different response. So don't be afraid to do that. And that's just from that could be from just one piece of content.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

You've got to keep it going though, you've got to work it. So I remember one of the first pieces of mine that started to go viral was the first time I spoke out about some of the less than positive elements of my past: the the domestic abuse, the trying to unalive myself, breaking my back, all of that stuff. And I I did a video about that to encourage everybody else to keep going and to hang in there. And that went viral, and that ended up in HuffPost back in the day, early HuffPost days when it still was RNA, winter. That got national regional coverage, radio coverage as well. And so much of the opportun so many of the opportunities I've had since I can trace right back to that.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, you're talking years ago, aren't you? Things that you've done like ten years ago are still bringing a paying dividend.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

It's still up to me to keep it going. Not to put a bore in everyone, but when the anniversary pops up, put the video out again.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

You know, or if you know, there've been there have been publications where I've quoted things on seasonal affective disorder, for instance. When that pops up, share that piece again. Where I've been quoted as a business expert during things like recession times, we come to hard times again, float that back up. You've got to still be making those pieces work for you. You're going to be driving that visibility yourself a lot of the time. And it's not just about showing where you've been all the time, it's again how much of an impact you are making every day for the people in your community, whether that's local in terms of your geographical area, or whether it's your online community, instead of getting up every day thinking how what how can I sell more? Who can I serve? Who needs me to be my A game today?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Yeah, I like that. I always like that phrase when you use that a lot, don't you, in your business? Um, and talk to people when you're you know you're helping them with their own promotion. And that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Keep it real, make sure that you're you're you're helping more than you're selling. That's so so important. And that's I think your visibility will grow far more solidly from a consistent attitude of being authentic, sticking to your values, and doing your best to be of service. That does not mean that you should be a pushover and give everybody everything for free. I don't mean that. But there's lots of stuff you can be doing to help and support people, just in the content that you put out there, that gives them a really powerful experience of what it might be like to work with you. What you might be like as as a contact or as a client or as an an employee, whatever an employer, whatever it happens to be.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

That's why it's so important, isn't it? To show more of you, you know, personal stuff about you, you know, what you're comfortable with, firstly, you know, you don't they don't need to know your inside leg measurement, but maybe talking about some of the things that you do when you're not working. So what do you do in your free time? What you know, I don't know. Taz is a great Greek mythology nerd, aren't you? You talk about that quite a bit. You talk about you know, Buffy and Yeah, and all sorts of things on here. Wonder Woman and lots of yeah, lots of Iron Man and all of these sorts of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

But talking about Iron Man was not part of Greek mythology.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

No, no, no, just sort, yeah, I'm just sort of yeah, okay. Yeah, what do I know? But that, you know, bring more bringing more of you into it. Because people remember those conversations. I've I've had that happen a lot when I've started, you know, talking to somebody about business-related stuff, and then we've gone on to talk about, I don't know, spirituality or dogs. Or or the likes. Yeah, well, they are at the moment because it's National Pet Month in the UK, April the 1st and May the 5th, a chance to promote responsible pet ownership and celebrate the joy that our pets bring into our lives. All year round, though.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

But the point is, how many times have you said to me that you've been in some kind of scenario one-to-one networking with someone or something like that, and it's been trying to like trying to get blood out of a stone, and then you realise that they're a dog owner. Yeah, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

For instance, and that all the barriers come down, and it's like you're talking about what it's like to go out in the, you know, early in the winter's morning and you know, have to go and try and find where your dog's had a poo or something. Have you got a poo bag with you and and make sure you're not hanging them on trees? I don't understand why people do that, but anyway, that's not yeah, exactly. But that's but I don't sound say we've been quite flippant now. But those sort of things are the random conversations, and I bet we can all relate to that that we've all had in our business time when we've chatted to somebody about something completely unrelated to what we do for our work, but that's the thing that stays with people, and then it leads to another conversation that is related to what you do, and then from that you get a business. Tell me who hasn't had that opportunity. If you haven't, let us know, and I'm sure we've got some more advice on that and how we can help you with that.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

And to go full circle, let's bring you back to my Heather Peace interview, which was something that I did during lockdown to give people a lift. And look at that, I I get work from it. Not because of anything to do with me, but because somebody was a fan of Heather Peace and that open opened up business doors and never expected it to. Yep. So you gotta just keep showing up and keep serving, but don't expect one hit. Whether it's a viral video, whether it's a TED talk, whether it's an article in the press, whether it's uh something going viral, said that, haven't I? Whatever it is. Whatever it is, don't expect to be a one-hit wonder.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Because even when we go back to the 80s and talk about all those one-hit wonders, yeah, there was a lot going on behind the scenes before they got that one-hit.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

There's no such thing as a an overnight success takes years to create.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

It does.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

So true. So I guess really we ought to wrap up.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

We should, we should. If you've enjoyed hearing about visibility, personal brand, all of that jazz, what other episodes might people enjoy if they've liked those?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Well, I don't know, there's lots. What would you start with? Where would you go? Oh, I'm just sorry, I rattled the table. I'm sorry, Taz. That was my fault. I got very excited then when I was thinking about all the different episodes. Personal brand is not your logo.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I was in episode one. You might enjoy that one. How to get visible without vomiting.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

That might be another one.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

What else? Uh, what about the book you're scared to write? Oh, yeah, that's a good one. I think that's episode eight, I think. Of series one. Of series one, I think so. Um and also there's another one actually that we did, didn't we, about don't just sell stuff but tell stories. Tell stories. That was a good that's a good one too.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

So again, if visibility personal brand is are is on your radar, they might be good episodes for you to look up if you if you're kind of surfing a bit of awesomely off topic topic at the minute. But I hope that's been helpful for you. We would love to hear from you. We'd love to hear any messages you can get us through BudSprout and Awesomely Off Topic site. Just search for Awesomely Off Topic on BudSprout or on any of the podcast channels. Also, search for Awesomely Off Topic on Instagram and Facebook. You can message us there. We'd love to hear from you what you've liked. Don't tell us what you haven't what you've liked, anything you haven't liked. That's all right, we can take it. Even where you're from. And if you've got questions or things that you'd like us to talk about or anything we can unlock for you in the spirit of serving, please, please let us know. Yeah. And where appropriate and when we can, we'll float that up into another episode. We will do. But so there we go, that was the few visibility myths busted. I hope that's helped. And we will see you next Tuesday.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

You've been listening to Autumn Me Off Topic. Make sure you're following so you don't miss the next one. And if you'd like more, come and find Autumn Me Off Topic on social media. You'll find behind the scenes footage, bleepers, and more. See you next time.