🎙️ S2 E8: We Were The Secret: Feelings We Couldn’t Safely Say Out Loud

WARNING: Episode contains mentions of suicidal ideation and emotional trauma. 

We’re going to take you back to a time before dating apps, before video calls, and before “out” felt like something you could say without scanning the room. Our love story starts with a UK lesbian magazine, a Dial-a-Diva message line, and a meeting plan so romantic we both ended up at the wrong service station.

But the real point of what we’re sharing is bigger than how we met. We talk about hiding and masking as a survival skill: performing a version of yourself that keeps you safe while costing you energy, joy and honesty. We connect the dots between closeting and the daily micro-decisions people rarely see, like fudging weekend stories, calling your partner a “friend”, or still wondering in 2026 whether it’s safe to hold hands. We also name the wider UK context, including Section 28 and the uncomfortable truth that progress can slide backwards when politics turns cruel.

We get personal about what it did to us, including anxiety, depression, and the way ADHD masking and hyperfocus can intensify crushes, friendships, and heartbreak when you cannot name what you feel. We share stories of being harassed, of losing people we loved, and of the relief of small, ordinary freedom when it finally arrives. Underneath the laughs, our takeaway is simple: be kinder than you think you need to be, because you never know what someone is carrying in silence.

If this resonates, subscribe so you don’t miss what comes next, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Setting The Tone

Speaker 1 0:00

You're listening to Awesomely Off-Topic - Books, Brands, Business and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud. I'm Taz - and Asha - now let's get into it. We're back with another episode of Awesomely Off Topic, and today we're digging a little bit deeper. We are going to be sharing with you stories that we've very rarely shared before, and it's all coming out of one of our last weekends. We had our fire weekend, uh the big one a few weekends back where we worked with the element of fire, we did firewalking, crazy stuff like that. But round the dinner table one evening, a lot of people were asking us about the real story about how we met and about what it was like before we'd met each other, and about coming out and all of that jazz that today feels like, yeah, easy pickings, we're out we're out now, it's no problem. But back then, it wasn't. And Ash and I were talking before we recorded this, because I know I felt a little bit nervous about sharing some of this stuff.

Speaker 1:02

I was pretty chilled out. I've just sat here stuffing my face with a bagel before we went on air, and Taz was just glaring at me trying to get me to. I am a chocolate fiend. I love, I love it. Was that you know those um what are they called? Those lovely desserts. They're very nice.

Speaker 1 1:21

Anyway, Soya Al pro dessert I put on my bagel.

Speaker 1:25

Very perfect combination. If you haven't tried it, everybody, try it, really nice. Anyway, anyway, sorry. Awesomely off topic, Taz. Yeah. So chill, baby, chill.

Hiding, Masking, Survival Mode

Speaker 1 1:36

Yeah, exactly. What we don't want from this episode is for it to just become an LGBTQIA plus episode because at the heart of what we want to talk about, it's about hiding, it's about performing a version of ourselves that kept us safe but felt like at the time it was costing us everything. And you know, we've talked about similar themes since then with with ADHD and recognising how much we've been masking in retrospect. But this isn't just about how we met and got together. It's about things like the the crushes that we couldn't name at the time. Oh yeah. Comes to a few of those over the years, that's for sure. Yeah, it's about the feelings we had to translate into something that felt acceptable and the the mental energy spent on concealment that we could have used that energy elsewhere. And I'm hoping that those themes are universal. Every person listening to this, I bet at some point has hidden something about themselves that for whatever reason they felt was unacceptable.

Speaker 2:47

Yeah, I totally agree. It could be so many different things, couldn't it? It doesn't, it's not necessarily to do with your sexuality or I don't know, for me, I mean one of my things over the years has been ironically, having just eaten a bagel with chocolate spread on it, is overeating. I've realised that's quite a stim for me, so I overeat quite frequently, but also found that I couldn't talk about that with anybody before until I kind of got to know you and started talking about it openly. And we know that if I'm stressed, what I'll do is I'll eat when I don't necessarily need to eat. Yeah. Today I'm not particularly stressed as far as I'm aware, because it's a bank holiday, we're chilling out, but I'm also thinking, I just fancy a bagel. There's bagels in the cupboard, and I've got chocolate, I've got a chocolate, you know, mix with it, so that would be good.

Speaker 1 3:31

But you also knew that we were up against the timer because we've still got to go and pick the dogs up. Yeah. Oh, wonderful dog says that says Shell knows what time we're coming over there. But when you knew we were up against it, you went and grabbed food. That's a good point.

Speaker 3:44

Yeah. Okay, so maybe I am still stuck up.

Speaker 1 3:46

Crinkling your wrappers.

Speaker 3:47

Yeah, crinkling my crinkle my wrappers. Crinkling your wrappers. Really? I didn't move. Anyway. Apart from my gob.

Speaker 1 3:54

So let's go briefly into how we met all those years ago. Oh my goodness, mate.

Speaker 3:59

Can we go that far back?

Speaker 1 4:01

I think we can. We've literally just celebrated 28 years together. Woo!

Speaker 4:04

28 years.

Speaker 1 4:06

How did we meet Ash?

Speaker 4:08

Well, for those of you listeners that haven't heard this story before, I said we're going to tell it slightly differently today, I think, in a bit more depth. But I used to subscribe regularly and still pick up the occasional magazine, DIVA magazine, which is a UK lesbian magazine, and which I'd been reading for years and years and years. And one day I was in my little house down in Kent redecorating my lounge, and I started to go through and I found this ad in the back of the magazine.

Speaker 1 4:34

Redecorating your decorating your lounge after what?

Speaker 4:37

After having left my husband three and a half months previous to that, we'd agreed that I'd stay on in the house, I'd pay the mortgage and we'd sort things out as we went. And I was wanted a fresh start, so I was redecorating. And I can always remember because you took the Mickey, because I'd ended up with one of those freezes that you put around the walls. I wanted I had bright yellow in my I just wanted something bright and cheerful.

Speaker 1 5:01

Green on the bottom and yellow on the top. I did. I know everybody's going, Oh, was I taking the Mickey out of?

Speaker 5:07

Because of the freeze that I put round it, which actually should have been a kitchen one, but I liked it, so I put it in my lawn.

Speaker 1 5:12

Apples and pears and I liked it.

Speaker 5:15

What can I say? That's where I was at the time. Anyway, so I was so I was so I was decorating and then I looked in the back of this magazine and I and I found this advert and I thought, oh, and it was called Dialodiva. So in the time of the days when you used to phone up, you'd phone up this number and listen to this.

Speaker 1 5:32

For the internet.

Speaker 5:33

Yeah, listen to this message from somebody and then leave a message if you were interested in learning a bit more about them. And I heard Taddy's voice and chassis. Oh, anyway, I had a glass of wine or two with me, and uh may have partaken in some of that and left her a message, and then I got a bit more tiddly and I left another message, and then I think it was three messages later. I think there were more than three. Were there th more than three, were there? Well, I don't know, but there were quite a few messages, and I left her a message and she got back in touch, and that was it, really, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 6:04

But you've got to remember that back then I was deeply, deeply closeted. I think you were as well, weren't you? Oh, of course. We'd both been raised to believe that being gay was not something that you did.

Speaker 6:17

No, not at all.

Speaker 1 6:18

And if you were, then you you hid it, and you led a publicly heterosexual life. You know, I went as What were the neighbours think? Yeah, what were the neighbours think? As far as being told that it was perverted, yeah, that my life would be over, my career would be over, nobody could know. I was literally, I literally felt like the only gay in the village. Yeah. It was it was hideous. So at the time, I'd only fairly recently bought one of these magazines for the first time, and I ended up going in and out of WH Smith's as it was then, 17 times.

Speaker 6:51

It was always on the top shelf, wasn't it? Let's do all the other magazines.

Speaker 1 6:54

I was thinking I bought some very obviously girly magazines, something like Cosmo.

Speaker 6:59

Yeah, you can hide it underneath it.

Speaker 1 7:00

A decorating magazine.

Speaker 7:02

Yeah. And probably that's why I subscribe, because it was easy. Yeah, probably.

Speaker 1 7:06

Something like, I don't know, an exchange in Mart.

Speaker 7:08

Yeah. Gardner's World, maybe. That was weekly.

Speaker 1 7:13

And a copy of Diva that I hid in the middle of this great pile of magazines.

Speaker 7:17

This is what I do every week, every week of the year. Yeah. I'm not at all sweating or anything. No, not at all.

Speaker 1 7:22

I think it was the first one, the first time I'd ever bought it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And this dialogue everything. So the way it worked at my end is I had a number to ring and I listened to all these messages.

Speaker 7:33

How many did you get out of interesting?

Speaker 1 7:34

Quite a lot. Quite a lot. But I only replied to one.

Speaker 7:38

It was me. It was yours. Was it because I was drunk? It was because I wasn't I wasn't drunk, was I? I was just tiddly a bit tiddly.

Speaker 1 7:45

You were quite drunk. The last message you left me said something along the lines of and because I also like badminton, but since leaving my husband, I've lost my badminton partner. True story. True story. Yeah. But I think the thing was, number one, I felt really drawn to your voice and your energy. But also you spent nice save. You spent quite a long time rabbiting on about your career, and it became evident that our CVs were pretty much exactly the same. We could have laid one on top of the other. It's uncanny, wasn't it? And so we kept chatting on the phone for a while, didn't we? And then we eventually agreed to meet up.

Meeting Plans Go Wrong Fast

Speaker 8:22

Yeah. But that was yeah, and that was, yeah. You can take go from a fun, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 8:27

Because I was in Leicestershire and you were in Kent. Yeah. We found there the M1. Yeah, a really romantic meeting destination, a service station. And I remember sitting there and she hadn't turned up. And I was thinking this was too good to be true, it's not going to happen. Because again, only gay in the village, you don't do things like this. And you gone to a different service station.

Speaker 8:48

Yeah, I was sitting thinking exactly the same thing. She's not going to turn out. What am I doing? This is ridiculous. Yep. Who am I kidding? But she's not really interested. And actually, I've never had you know any kind of experience with a worm before. So therefore, so it's like, this is is this the way things are done? I don't know. She's just keeping me waiting deliberately.

Speaker 1 9:07

Is it a I mean I've talked quite openly about the abusive relationship I'd escaped and had to go into hiding from before. This was my first relationship from there.

Speaker 9:16

Yeah. So we're both really nervous and thinking the other one may have stood the other one up. Yeah. But then what happened as somehow I managed to pick up the courage to ring and say. Thank goodness for mobile phones. Because if it had been a few years before, mobile phones that look like a brick. Yeah, but at least we had a mobile phone. I only bought my mobile phone so I could get a year's worth of free cinema, but there you go.

Speaker 1 9:38

But I remember calling and saying something along the lines of said you're standing me up then or actually just go home again.

Speaker 9:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 9:44

And you said, Well, no, you're standing me up. And then we realised that we were both different service stations.

Speaker 9:51

Because we've gone for such a romantic place to meet. Obviously, we were just stunned by the scenery, the old wrappings in the bin, of people with their boat. Exactly. The sunset over the little chef. Oh, so romantic. The sounds and the smell of the fumes of the of the yeah. The greasy food. Totally. And the cars. It was just happy memories.

Speaker 1 10:17

So anyway, we decided to drive to try and meet each other and ended up finding a kind of pub car park between the two of us, didn't we? Yeah. Parking in there and nervously kind of finding each other. And then going into this this pub for some drinks. And Ash spent most of that evening. Oh dear, not my proudest moment. I was panicking.

Speaker 10:39

Talking about a massive crush she had on somebody else. I know. I just had to get it out somehow, didn't I? Yeah. Great timing, Asher. Well done. So we went from that pub to another pub, just had a kind of tour around the counter. Yeah, but also, can I just say as well, and I do talk about this, I've written about this quite a bit actually, because I'm not great as a passenger in a car at the best of times. I know, but you didn't know that, of course. But you drove like a bat out of hell.

Speaker 1 11:06

I was trying to impress you, sir. She was, and in my really fumpy box on Nova.

Speaker 11:11

Swinging this car around, and I'm in the passenger seat, feeling really quite green round the gills, and she's got a leather fringe jacket on the back of the seat. Every time we went round the corner, it whipped me across the face. Like for goodness.

Speaker 1 11:26

Not the jacket.

Speaker 11:27

Yeah. And it was like, it wasn't the best first journey together, really, because I felt like my fringe biker jacket was so cool.

Speaker 1 11:35

It was, but even so, it was like a dragon brooch on it.

Speaker 11:38

Yeah, exactly. Well, there you go. So, but it was it was yeah, it was just a really interesting experience. But I felt so by the time we stopped in that car park, I was really feeling a bit icky. Yeah. A little bit green.

Speaker 1 11:51

And you got to the evening where you know we needed to go to our respective homes. Uh-huh. And still nothing had happened. We'd just chatted.

The First Snog And Teddy Bears

Speaker 11:59

And what happened then? Well, we're sitting in your car, and you said, Well, we could sit here all night, we could have a snug.

Speaker 1 12:06

Yeah, and you laughed it off and looked out the other window. And I thought, well, I feel a bit of a pillock now then.

Speaker 12:11

But then I put my hand on your knee. Yeah, and then a few minutes later you went, How can I have that snug then?

Speaker 1 12:17

And that was it.

Speaker 12:18

It was. And then I left.

Speaker 1 12:20

And then it was a creaking biker jacket, and that was then I had to leave, and you thought I was making excuses. Oh, yeah. Because the next day I was exhibiting.

Speaker 12:29

Can you get this as well? What can I just say to the listeners at this point, if you're listening to this, anybody that knows Taz knows as she is now or even years ago, would you have thought she would say this? Q Taz. Taz, explain.

Speaker 1 12:43

I've really got to go now because I'm exhibiting at a big teddy bear fair tomorrow, and I've got to finish making some bears and get ready to exhibit. Right.

Speaker 12:53

Yes, that sounds really genuine, that one.

Speaker 1 12:56

I did. I used to make fully jointed.

Speaker 12:58

I know you did now.

Speaker 1 13:00

Artist bears. I know, but you would not put the two together. I was exhibiting at the NEC the next morning.

Speaker 13:05

Oh my goodness, Mary, and very beautiful bears they were. They were indeed. They went all over the world. All over the world, yes, exactly. But people pay a fortune to put a blooming. I couldn't get over this. The things people do will pay to have their their bear put in a little mini air balloon and on a little zip wire across the NEC and they'll pay.

Speaker 1 13:25

Oh no, that wasn't the NEC, that was in Lofborough.

Speaker 13:27

But they'll pay money for you to take it from there to there.

Speaker 1 13:30

To do the side of the room on a pulley system.

Speaker 13:31

I don't think.

Speaker 1 13:33

They could send their bears away to university and they'd come back with a certificate.

Speaker 13:37

Problems. Maybe that's what I should have done. I might have got my university certificate.

Speaker 1 13:42

The electrophile community was pretty serious.

Speaker 13:45

Wow. Serious? Yeah. Really? Big stuff. You cannot be serious.

Speaker 1 13:49

Anyway, after that. So we both went off to our respective homes again, miles and miles and miles apart.

Speaker 13:57

Well yeah, about 140 miles apart.

Speaker 1 13:59

Yeah. And you called up the next day.

Speaker 14:02

You you rang and said you needed to meet up again. Oh yeah, I did the f I did the thing that I've I had never done before until that point, which was bunking off work. I took a day off sick. I've never done that before I've done ne I'd never done that at all.

Speaker 1 14:18

And you drove 140 miles to come and meet me in my lunch house.

Speaker 14:20

Yep, I did.

Speaker 1 14:21

I was like, this is completely mad.

Speaker 14:23

What are you doing? You've lost your mind.

Speaker 1 14:25

I think you just wanted to see me in my business station.

Speaker 14:28

I left it at the service station. Well, yeah, it was a really hot business still. Very nice. But yeah, but then we got together and then I was so nervous that we just sat on this hill and I couldn't think of what to say or what to do. I know.

Speaker 1 14:41

And eventually confessed that these feelings were so big for you that you couldn't feel that strongly so quickly, but you needed to come back and check.

Speaker 14:51

So I did for an hour. And then you went back to work. Bizarre wasn't it? It was, it was bizarre. Even though I'd been very good at trying to hadn't I put you off the scent a bit by saying, basically talking about people that I'd had major crushes of. And that you apparently still dead. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 15:12

And anyway, so we'd snuck off together for my lunch hour.

Speaker 2 15:15

Yeah.

Long-Distance Love On Phone Lines

Speaker 1 15:16

And then on the way back out, having picked this secluded part part of a country park, when we came out, it was absolutely teeming with TV and news crews, because apparently a body had been found there overnight. Oh yeah, of course. So they closed the whole thing off, didn't they? And there were we walking out through the middle of it. And the rest, as they say, then is history. You know, we by, you know, within a few months we'd we'd got this agreement where I'd apply for jobs in your neck of the wood, and you'd apply for jobs in my neck of the wood, and whoever got the job first would move, and and I moved to Kent. There you go. And that's where we were. And we've been together ever since. So that is the true story of how we met. You know, it sounds idyllic, it it wasn't in many, many ways. There were lots of hurdles, there were lots of uh people close to us who did not agree with what we were doing, who were really quite homophobic, saying horrible things to us to try and split us apart. And there was a time when we tried to be part and we just couldn't do it. We ended up running a ridiculously high mobile to mobile phone.

Speaker 16:23

It's massive. My savings just went from I had we'd both I certainly had quite a few thousand in my savings. Oh I didn't, I was proper pauper, but by the end of it I was in debt because I'd because we spent we'd spend whole weekends on the phone, we'd watch like a whole movie together on the phone, didn't we? Mobile to mobile.

Speaker 1 16:39

Three movies, one week.

Speaker 16:40

I was gonna say, yeah, it was a bank, that was a bank holiday weekend, I think, wasn't it? Yeah, but we literally would do that and we'd be on the phone to each other all the time. So and it of course it was before anything like Zoom or T or anything like that where you had video as well. It was just talking to each other on the phone and reading to each other and wouldn't it?

Speaker 1 16:57

Yeah. And that was so traumatic, you know, when we'd go and meet up for a day or something, that awful feeling of having to having to leave each other at the end of the street.

Speaker 17:05

I used to be I'd always be because I'd go I'd go down the M1 and go home that way. So if if I'd gone to see Taz and you'd have it in the opposite, so I'd go over the Dartford Bridge going home, that would mean I was nearly home. Whereas for Taz that was setting out, wasn't it? And we both had tears at either end of those journeys.

Speaker 1 17:21

I also remember when I got to the Dartford Bridge coming to see you. If you've ever if you're listening here and you're familiar with the Dartford Bridge, it's it's a bridge that goes over the water, and there are all these kind of metal struts that come down that that hold the bridge suspended.

Speaker 17:36

Why would a bridge do anything other than go over the water? It could be going over a motorway. It's just the way it made it sound like you don't put a bridge over water. There you go. Over trouble water. Bridges are over many things. Okay, that's cool, that's fine. Carry on.

Speaker 1 17:49

Well, this this thing, we we got to the struts holding the bridge up, and I used to, for some reason, call them the stringy bits. Stringy bits. So when we got close enough, I'd call and say stringy bits, stringy bits. Yeah, exactly. And then we'd know that it was nearly there.

Speaker 18:03

Whereas at the other end of things, whenever I was coming away from the Midlands and coming down and going back onto the A w onto the M1, and there'd be a roundabout, and sometimes you'd follow me down in your car when you go round the roundabout, and I'd be sobbing as I got in my car and drove off and waved and sobbed my heart out for the next like 30 minutes until I calmed myself down. Yeah.

Speaker 1 18:25

And sometimes you'd be so tired, wouldn't you, that because you'd stay so late or vice versa. Yeah, you'd go and try and get a couple of hours sleep in a service state and all of that.

Speaker 18:32

Yeah, because I was working at the time I was working for an evening paper, which meant really early starts. You know, I was frequently in work in the office for like seven, yeah, seven, eight o'clock. And you know, particularly when I was yeah, tired if I'd been there a long, it'd been a long day, just come over for the day. So yeah, I'd stop at the services.

Sleeping At A Burnt-Out Services

Speaker 1 18:49

And what happened? Do you remember the famous one when you stopped at South Mims?

Speaker 18:54

What I hadn't realised was South Mims was burnt down a few years ago. Well, a few years ago, because it would it at the time, see, we're talking way back like years ago. But at the time it had it must have happened fairly recently. But somehow I managed to drive into a service station, didn't look at it. Literally, it was in the days before you had people coming around checking to see if you'd paid your thing after so many hours parking. It's two hours now, isn't it? Or something in those days you could just pull over and and stop. So I thought, right, okay, I'll lock myself in the car, I'll be fine. I've got a blanket in the back of the car, whatever, I'll wrap myself up, I'll be fine, just get a couple of hours' sleep, and then what I can do is I've got some clothes from there, I can just go straight into the office. I can you know I can go straight in, I won't have to go home. So I did that, pulled into the services, didn't look around me or anything, I was so tired because I'd at that point I'd nearly gone into the back of another vehicle because I was falling asleep on and that that was how close it was really bad. Yeah. Went to sleep for a couple of hours, woke up and it was it was the sun was just coming up, and I woke up and it was like this apocalyptic kind of scene, and there I am, and there's like smouldering bits of stuff, and I'm like, what the hell? And it was it was the service station, it obviously had a fire there a few, I don't know, days before or something.

Speaker 1 20:10

I've been in absolute shock. And I went and it had burnt down while you were in the car.

Speaker 20:14

It's like, what's happened? Has there been an apocalypse or something? And I don't know about it. What you know the public I can't say it.

Speaker 1 20:21

The apocalypse.

Speaker 20:22

I know, and I was like, what the hell? So I'd wrestle up through it, which I don't think I would have done because I think I would have been aware of that and it would have got quite hot in the car. But yeah, that was a bizarre one. But thank goodness I stopped because otherwise I would have had a nasty.

Section 28 And Finding Courage

Speaker 1 20:41

Oh, okay, is that a buffy thing? Oh, it's a buffy quote. So it was, yeah, and eventually, again, eventually we we moved in together, but even then it wasn't plain sailing because again, back then, you've got to remember that when we were first together, things like section 28 were still in force.

Speaker 20:59

Yeah. It wasn't like it is now. Yeah, but there's also a lot of people would like that back now. Yeah. We're going that way too, and that's a scary thing, but let's not get into that one for now. Oh, that's another episode for another day.

Speaker 1 21:10

But it is still there, and one of the reasons we wanted to share this is to give hope to any kids who are still deeply closeted or who are struggling. Wait to know that it it can get better. It does get better, and it's it's so hard to stand up for who you are and who you know you need to be in the face of people pushing back. It's really hard to find the courage to be true to yourself in the face of adversity from people you've grown up loving and respecting and admiring.

Speaker 21:45

Yeah, that's a really hard one. And there's I don't think there's ever any easy way through that. And there's a part I know there's a part of me that will always feel a little bit like that. Even now, all these years later, nearly 30 years later, if I think about it, I can feel The tears coming, and that's not because I haven't done a lot of work on it. I have done a lot of work to get me through that, you know, with therapists, with counselors, with you know, people that we've worked with that we know personally have helped with that and supported. There's so much love out there for us as a couple and for us as individuals. I'm so blessed that we have that. Yeah, but it doesn't mean that occasionally that still doesn't come along and and hit a little bit again, you know, particularly when you see other people that are going through similar things.

Speaker 1 22:25

Yeah.

Speaker 22:26

Even now, you know, even in 2026, you're still got enough.

Speaker 1 22:32

I cannot and the trans family are going through those.

Speaker 22:35

Imagine what that must be like.

Speaker 1 22:36

But I think the other thing is we all assume that kids who are gay or bi or pan or however however they describe themselves, however, wherever they fit on that spectrum, we assume it's okay for them now. But it's not. There's still an awful lot of homophobia, transphobia, really died-in-the-wall beliefs out there. There are still kids who are trying to hide who they are, and adults feeling they need to hide who they are. And I cannot describe to you what it is like to live your life feeling that you have to fundamentally hide a huge part of who you are. And you know, I remember people saying to me things like, Well, nobody needs to know that about you, you don't need to tell people anything about that. They didn't need to know that you know you're into women, quote unquote. Yeah. But imagine somebody saying something that, well, oh, what did you get up to at the weekend? And having to fudge it, not being able to say, Oh, I was with my partner, or you know, we went to the cinema, or who did you go with?

Speaker 23:42

Yeah, and it's now it's just a friendship because that's easier to explain. Who are you going on? Yeah, whether it's a loving relationship, you can't talk about that because you're worried about it. Well, who are you having?

Speaker 1 23:52

You're having dinner with that person a lot, haven't you? Yeah. The normal stuff that you would just say as part of a couple.

unknown 24:01

Yeah.

Speaker 24:01

Becomes prohibitive when you're living under that level of of having to hide. And then it's when that balance tips between what you can say and what you can't say, or you feel you can't say. So, in other words, there's more things that you're trying to avoid than the things that you actually can talk about safely. You know, revert back to all the standard stuff, don't you? Oh, you know, you know, oh, nice weather we're having, you know, and suddenly you lose all that deep kind of thing.

Speaker 1 24:23

And how it feels when you're so deeply closeted and hiding who you are, and then people around you are saying things that are inherently right against your core values. People around you who are making jokes about about gay people, people who are have making slights and and and rude comments about people who are gay or bi or trans or again, wherever on that spectrum. And you desperately, so desperately want to say something against that, and you don't feel that you can.

Speaker 24:57

And that's it, isn't it? You know, you've got to have a lot of strength to be able to do that, and that's why I really admire people, particularly trans friends that we have, and all the shit they're going through at the moment.

Speaker 1 25:08

Yeah, I mean our friend Katie Neves.

Speaker 25:09

Yeah. Hello, Katie.

Speaker 1 25:11

She's such an amazing, amazing woman, an amazing trans woman. And ballot age goes goes past where someone doesn't call her a paedophile.

Speaker 25:19

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 25:20

And she's what?

Speaker 25:21

I know, and I can't I can't imagine what that must be like in it.

Speaker 1 25:24

She's been publicly attacked by J. Claire Rolding more than once. It's like you've never you've never met her, what's your problem? These are just people trying to get on with their lives. And you know, again, we've been together for 28 years now. And you, if you're listening to this, would you think twice about holding your partner's hand if you walk down the street? We do. We still have to stop and think, is it safe to hold hands?

Holding Hands And Real-World Risk

Speaker 25:50

There was a lovely moment. Anyone that's been listening to our podcast, the previous podcast to this, we talk about being away for the bank holiday weekend, and we were in Sherwood Forest, which is a beautiful place to wander. Robin Hood's territory, one of my favourite places in England. And we had a lovely moment where we just walked hand in hand through the woodland without any worries, without any concerns, we're just being able to do that. And I know that may sound really ridiculously over the top, but believe me, we've been in situations when we've done that and it's not gone so well. And so, you know, some people would say, Well, you you could you could well pass us straight, you know, pass as straight. That I'm using that phrase because that's been thrown at us at times as well.

Speaker 1 26:30

Well, because we both were makeup, so yeah, possibly.

Speaker 26:32

Well, and at one time because we both had long hair as well, so we must be straight. But because of that, we're so lucky that we were able to do that in the forest. But you know, there's been times when we've wanted to do that in more public arenas, and actually we've had to we'd had to weigh it up and go, actually, I'm not sure, it just doesn't feel right.

Speaker 1 26:50

In the middle of Soho, yeah, probably okay. Some cities, okay. But you know, we held hands fleetingly in our home city of of Peterborough once. Just a literal, it was it was a quick, you know, squeeze of a hand for reassurance about something. And we were then followed around the town centre by two women quoting scripture at us for quite a while. Yeah. I've been backed up against the shop wall by a very beefy bloke saying that he assumed that I was gonna uh we hadn't even been holding hands that day, we're in a f on a free hugs day. I guess it's hard to hide your love for someone even if you're not having any PDAs, it's it's made an assumption.

Speaker 2 27:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:29

And he backed me up against the shop wall and held me there for for quite some time throwing the Bible at me. Or verses from I've had my car key, I've had my tyres attacked, we've had death threats. Yeah. We've had we've had we've lost people. People who have been again close to us and then cannot come to terms with a quote way of life. It's not a way of life, it's who we are. It's as fundamental as having blue eyes or brown eyes, which is part of who we are. Yeah. But the other thing, you know, is the times it's no wonder looking back that both of us ended up having problems with anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation. Yeah. Because even before we knew that we'd got ADHD, an Audi HD, which is hard enough with the the challenges that throws. But imagine growing up as uh kids and those those really intense crushes, you know, falling in love for the first time, yeah, and not being able to do anything about it, not being able to share publicly.

Speaker 28:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:43

Hideous.

ADHD Hyperfocus And Early Crushes

Speaker 28:44

I it's reminding me of when I was a teenager, so I would have been about twelve, or just going into teenage hood. I was twelve, mate, I think, twelve initially, and I met this particular person, individual who was who was friends with one of my my family members, yeah, who I had the biggest crush on. I mean the biggest crush. Yeah, you know, she ticked all the right boxes for me. Not that you know, there's a type for me, but there kind of is a bit, but there wasn't, but she just represented everything that I found really attractive. Yeah. And I had all these teenage hormones popping, yeah. And this woman there in front of me being really pally with a member of my family, and it was like this is really difficult. So I started buying the same music that she liked, and I bought I bought a jump. I always remember I bought a jumper that was very similar to the jumper that she wore. I had just a different colourway on mine that I had, and I started coming up with some of her phrases and things as well, and picking those up, and then you know, and I was it was absolutely crushing, you know. It really was.

Speaker 1 29:45

Now, here's a question is that worse for people with ADHD?

Speaker 29:49

Because as well as the whole falling in love having a crush thing, yeah, you've got a hyper focus. Oh, I was just gonna say hyperfocus, definitely, because it was everything about it. I've never, ever, ever until that point have ever been a Tina Turner fan. Now I am. I think she's she was an amazing artist, wonderful, wonderful energy. Everything about was incredible. Those pink, you know, she just looked the part on stage, didn't she? The way that she could use the whole thing. But at the time I wasn't into Tina Turner at all, but this particular person was, and so I bought all the albums. I'm like, and so I remember because I remember my mum noticing the difference because suddenly I started playing all these for me, what was quite heavy rock comparison.

Speaker 1 30:29

When Ash and I first got together and we joined our CD collections, for those of you who are young listeners, they're like tiny little deals. Yeah, and I'd got Guns N' Roses, Aerosmith, Bit of Jovi, White Snake, all of that kind of thing.

Speaker 30:45

I've got Spandell Ballet, I'd got Yazoo, Yazoo though, that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 30:50

You're not gonna call Yazoo Rock.

Speaker 30:52

No, but it was Yazoo, which was a bit different.

Speaker 1 30:54

Rocky pop.

Speaker 30:55

Yeah, alright, okay. Um maybe dollar and bucks fizz.

Speaker 1 31:00

Celindion and Elton John. It was really easy to see which CDs were mine and which were outside.

Speaker 31:05

But yeah, so yes, there was quite a change in my listening, yeah, my listening uh habits after that. So that but that was, you know, because there she was looking this amazing woman who had everything that I thought, you know, at that point I really wanted, but I couldn't say I wanted that because that's not what you're allowed to do. I've noticed intense friendships as well with teenage girls particularly have ri can have really, really intense friendships.

Speaker 1 31:30

But that awkward, where's the line? Well, if we're always hugging each other and holding each other and saying that we love each other, what's wrong? Where's the next bit? And just holding back.

Speaker 31:40

Yeah, exactly that.

Speaker 1 31:41

All the time.

Speaker 31:42

I had another friend at secondary school I've told you about before, who she always dressed differently to everybody else I knew. Yeah, and she'd got and she invited me around to her house one one evening after school. Yeah, and mum was a single mum. Yeah, I think no, her dad had I think she was a widow, so she's brought up a uh daughter, and she said, Oh, come around and we'll play records because that's what we did years ago. We're showing our age again. We're played records. That's what you did. You got your records out and played.

Speaker 1 32:08

She's gonna sit in her bedroom, yeah.

Speaker 32:10

So that's what we did, but then we started she liked to dance. So there she is, dancing along to whatever it was, I can't even remember what it was now. But she had this really lovely pair of jeans on, and this this is gonna sound really nah. She had like a Hawaiian style shirt, but at the time it was kind of a bit in, if I'm right, from the 80s, yeah, maybe in my defence. And she started dancing with those wiggly hips, and I was like that. I was like transfixed. I was like, I can't, I can just can't. She don't come on dance with me and grab my hands. I'm like, No, no, I can't do that, I can't do that, no, no, no. I'm blushing to the roots of my hair, and there she was with her incredible wiggly hips and her long curly hair, and I was just like, Wow, pussy in her hands, really, but you know, no, nothing ever came of it. I just sat there like a puppy dog. And because it's wrong, yeah, and I went home and thought, what is going on?

Speaker 1 33:03

Yeah, and I remember this schooling the somebody I'd got a massive crush on in secondary school as well, and we we swapped shoulder jackets for a while. Did you? Yeah, and exchanged rings for a while. Well, that's not but it was just friendship, yeah.

Speaker 33:17

But my oh, with this particular friendship, I said to you, there were these letters. Now, this is a mystery, everybody. What do you make of this? I'm gonna share it. I've never told anybody, I think I've told two people in my life, one of which is one of my friends from school. Michelle, if you're listening, I think I told you about this. But Taz obviously knows. But this same person that I had that who had the wiggly hips, she'd got two boy friends that she was trying to get us to go out with or whatever, or she kind of joked about it, but we never actually met them. But they started being pen pals and writing to me, and she used to deliver these handwritten letters with all this, you know, lots of information in there to read them, and I'd write back flirty naughty information. Yes, and I never ever met the boys, and she never she never boys or the boys? There were two, there were supposed to be two boys. There were two boys, but we never met the boys that she was talking about. There was one that she was writing to, although I never saw the evidence of that. Okay, but I used to get this letter that she would deliver from him. It'd be this little neatly folded letter.

Speaker 1 34:24

Was it girly handwriting or boy handwriting?

Speaker 34:28

And she used to think I think she was writing the letters, and I used to read them and go, oh, oh, oh really? Oh I can't even remember what was in them. But I used to wait for these letters, and at the time, my film tutor who had quite a reputation for being quite strict, but we were in like the domestic science part of the school, it was one of the more modern bits of the school, and they'd got individual bits for the staff room, and then like the cloakroom for the girls, and at the time it was quite a private area, not none of the other classrooms had that because it was the most modern bit of the school, so we were quite lucky, privileged that we had that. So there was this cloakroom where you went to put all your coats in, but you could sit little benches by it, and we used to sit there and read the letters, and she'd read the letter we'd read the letters out and say, Woohoo, it's lovely and get all blushy and things.

Speaker 1 35:17

And now I'm thinking, so I remember one of my cringiests. What do you think with that? I think she was probably writing you the letters. Yeah, I think she would. Imagine if you'd both been able to felt the open.

Speaker 35:28

I know.

Speaker 1 35:29

Well, it would have been different. You might have been wearing Hawaiian shirts now.

Speaker 35:32

She was very fun. I did that for um, what was it? No, not atomic on. Was it automic on?

Speaker 1 35:38

Yeah, busy shirts night.

Speaker 35:39

I know, but yeah. Wiggly hips woman.

Speaker 1 35:43

Didn't we? We wore each other's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I remember at grammar school, I think, yeah, having an assignment where you had to write about a friendship group or something. Yeah. And my mum would I was the A-star English student, and my mum would always want to read my essays. Yeah. And I poured everything into this one, and of course, one of the girls in it that was writing about, I was hopelessly head-over heading. Devoted to you. Good old Olivia. Hopelessly devoted. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you was. Yeah. Um and I remember mum reading it and saying it with quite a stony face. Well, I think it's very good, but I think you need to do something to change it because it sounds like sounds like that character's in love with the other girl. True story. But I remember just feeling so ashamed and so embarrassed because she gave me this look with it, and I was like, you know. There's no way you don't know. And just this soul crushing, shriveling up, oh my god, there's something wrong with me. I'm broken, I'm terrible. I shouldn't be alive, you know, all of that awful, awful stuff. So we moved past that, of course, and then into younger adulthood. What's it like then when the crushes come?

Speaker 36:55

Oh. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 36:56

Because again, bearing in mind, we were both still deeply closeted. This when Ash and I met, that was the first kind of same-sex relationship either of us had had. We were just really lucky that we happened to meet and you know the stars all aligned and wow.

Speaker 37:11

Yeah, but the young adulthood going into work and stuff, because the thing is with our jobs as well, it was never a nine to five job. So you were working long hours, weren't you? Which meant long times in the office, sometimes when you're up against on a deadline for your work, you know, as journalists. So you spent a lot of time with people in quite high high stress situations actually, yeah. When you're on deadline and you're up against it to get your story filed, ready for the paper. And so, yeah, I met quite a few people over the years that I had big crushes on. And then there was one particular story that I did many years later, before we met, but one individual who I wrote actually wrote a story on her. Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:55

And uh both had biker chicks that we've got. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adult Crushes And Unspoken Signals

Speaker 37:59

Yeah, and she also probably had a fringe jacket with her. I don't know, I can't remember it, but not as good as yours, obviously. No, of course. But what happened to that jacket? I don't know. Anyway. I don't know, it's probably I don't know, somewhere, somewhere, somewhere over the rainbow. But yeah, so I got to know someone, she invited me over for a cup of tea or whatever, and then like it was in the days when you had to have photographs that you had to hand back to people, you didn't have digital images. So you imagine that. So you when somebody would I would interview them, I'd ask them for an image to go with the story, and they'd have to lend it to me. I'd have to then take it to the office, get it uh reproduced, get it copied, and then take it back. Often, um nine times out of ten, we just post it back to people, that'd be absolutely fine. But on this occasion, because she lived quite locally to me, I decided to hand deliver it, and then so ensued this kind of quite a few months of meeting up. I went round to hers, we met for drinks and stuff, and it was just one of those weird relationships. Nothing ever happened. She talked about her boyfriend quite a bit, but there was just something, and I can always remember because we went to a bar locally, and it was I went off to get the drinks, but she came up as well, and we were standing at the bar, and I went to grab the drink at the same time as she did, and we literally did that and touched hands, and we both went like that and put pulled our hands away because it was like it was like this electric shock going through us. It was like what?

Speaker 1 39:27

It was like in all the in all the period dramas where you have the intense passions between them.

Speaker 39:32

But nothing ever but it was so hinted at, so hinted at. Yeah, and probably that you know, do you know what I mean? There were opportunities that I just didn't and the same with me, you know.

Speaker 1 39:42

You had the same, didn't you? And you know, it's one of the awful things about women. I love women, you know, I'm massive feminist, but also love women. Love men too. I'm I'm not a man hating men. You're in dangerous terrorists. There was oh god, how'd you describe it? We were working at the same place and we'd just both stayed back working for inexplicable reasons. Yeah. We absolutely hit it off, there was such a big pull there. And my god, she would flirt. She was one of the first people I ever came out to.

Speaker 40:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:25

And my god, she would flirt outrageously with me. And I I would have moved heaven and earth. If you know, she'd have asked me to jump off a cliff. Yeah. Whatever. I would have done anything for this woman. Hopelessly, head over here was in love with her so so deeply. And she'd flirt like Billy O. And, you know, we'd have this really weird skirting her, this kind of dancing around each other, and it'd be nothing happening.

Speaker 40:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:53

Until one day, out of the blue, on one of the nights where we both inexplicably stayed late at work, she made some big deal about how she used to think that she was into women and then realised that she wasn't women. Yeah. And just my heart shattered into a gazillion pieces all at once.

Speaker 41:13

So that was like, wasn't it? We both went through things like that.

Speaker 1 41:16

Where it was like And best friends as well. They are best friends that had massive crushes. I remember with with somebody I was friends with for years, again, huge, huge, huge, massive I would move heaven and earth for them. But is that also to do with the hyperphone? And again, is it hyperphobic which which is going to make it even more intense?

Speaker 41:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 41:36

But I remember that, I used to talk to her about the woman I was so horribly in love with. But use a fake name when I was actually talking about her. Yeah, we'd talk to her. So we just smile laughing at her. Why don't you just go and tell her? So no, I can't know. And there she is right in front of you. Hello.

Speaker 41:57

Yeah. No. Amazing, isn't it? So yeah, the So by now you're in your twenties, aren't you? Presumably or your late teens at this point.

Speaker 1 42:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 42:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:06

So if I count on the on the fingers of one hand, there probably from school up to before I met you, probably three girls, oblique women.

Speaker 42:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:18

That I would have said completely in love with that person, I would do anything for them. Oh my god, that's so soul crushing.

Speaker 42:23

So how old were you when the first one? Because for me, mine was primary school, without a doubt.

Speaker 1 42:29

You see, if I think depth of feeling would have been grammar school for me. So 14 upwards. Yeah. But in hindsight, looking back, I can see the crushes there that I didn't recognise as crushes at the time. Yeah. So I can look back now and know it all started with Linda Carter as Wonder Woman and the Spangly Pants.

Speaker 42:50

That's really funny because you're making me laugh because it's when we think about things like that. So for me, it was the girl that was in my class at primary school.

Speaker 1 42:58

With Spangly Pants?

Speaker 42:59

No, she no spangly pants. But she played when we went to secondary school, she played Nancy. And that was and Nancy, anybody that knows Oliver, the musical, just Nancy is the heroine of the stuff, isn't she? She's just an amazing character. Oh Nancy's wonderful. And she would be up on stage doing that, and there's me in the you know background doing it.

Speaker 1 43:18

Usually with the one in the cleavage.

Speaker 43:19

Yeah, exactly. Well, exactly that, and you know, and it was like that made it even worse. So actually, I'd always hold held a bit of a flame. Is that the expression? Held a bit of a flame.

Speaker 1 43:30

Bit of a flame, a bit of a torch.

Speaker 43:32

Yeah. For at primary school. Without thinking about it now, that was already brewing. But then when we went to secondary school and she was in my form uh in my in my full yeah, my form in at secondary school. That was it.

Speaker 1 43:45

I was like, oh, and stuck our channing in Greece. I'd such a massive rizzo cross for years. Anyway. To the point where people used to call me Rizzo because I was so into Greece out of my time. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

Speaker 44:00

It's it's just crikey, just you just Taz actually for those listening, Taz is actually really cringing now and physically putting her hands over her face and hiding herself.

Speaker 1 44:10

I'm pretty sure I'm blushing. So that's it.

Speaker 44:11

You are blushing, you're actually matching your hair really nicely. So that's so that was what some of our time at school was like in our early careers and things until we met.

Speaker 1 44:21

And because when we were first together, we ended up working in the same place. And we had to nobody knew. Nobody knew.

Speaker 44:29

Well, no, didn't no, nobody knew, didn't we?

Speaker 1 44:31

Well, a couple of close friends did.

Speaker 44:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1 44:34

You know, we were both at the time sharing a single bed and you're two up, two down. And I remember one of our work friends who knew, Asher walked into work one day complaining about having a sore back. And one of our work colleagues who knew and said very, very loudly, Well, I'm not surprised with you and Taz sharing that single bed together, and then really subtly slapped a hand over her mouth and ran out.

Speaker 44:55

But nobody picked up on it. No. How? It must have been deadline day. Must have been. Everybody was too busy. That's what was going on, I think. I didn't notice.

Speaker 1 45:04

But I know it's so easy to make light of this now.

Speaker 45:07

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 45:07

But if you've ever had to hide anything that's fundamentally true about who you are, it's not so funny, is it?

Speaker 45:14

At all.

Speaker 1 45:15

It's horrible. And the other thing I want to say as well is the amount of when we first started to come out, and again, it I don't think it's quite the same now, because it's much more commonplace now. Yeah. Particularly with the younger generations. Oh god, I sound 106. I thought that when you said that was I know when I was a young girl. Yes, just had enough money to it, my boss.

Speaker 45:37

Because you hit you've 'cause you're over fifty, half a century, it does something to you.

Coming Out Reactions And Kindness

Speaker 1 45:41

But when we first started to come out to Kupelash, to women particularly, what were the reactions? We could break it down to three reactions. Yeah. Most of the time.

Speaker 45:49

What with w with other women? They'd either flirt outrageously with you, or talk about men's appendages quite often.

Speaker 1 45:56

Yeah.

Speaker 45:57

And how they love them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 45:58

Oh, I really love car love dick. Oh, I love a penis.

Speaker 46:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:02

And the third one would be to say, Well, have you ever fancied me?

Speaker 46:06

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 46:08

No. Well, why not? What's wrong with me?

Speaker 46:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:11

And start flirting. And and again, if we look back to some of those times where we were so, so, so in the closet because we'd been told by our families, our peers at the time that it was so so wrong. And we were so so broken, and it was so defective, and we should be ashamed and embarrassed and all of that jazz. It's so painful when you are genuinely going through those feelings and women lead you on. Yeah. That's somebody's it doesn't matter how much you love the adulation, it doesn't matter how much matter how much you feel that you need that. And it's the same with women leading fellas on, and vice versa. It's a human thing. But please remember that whatever gender you are, if there's somebody that genuinely has feelings for you, don't do the leading him up the vampire. Don't, you know, don't dash the hopes and just shatter them immediately and do it cruelly. But don't lead people on when they have genuine feelings for you. That's so joking aside, there's going to be cases where that could be life or death.

Speaker 47:15

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 47:16

It's so big, those emotions can be so strong.

Speaker 47:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 47:19

So can we just be a little bit kinder with people?

Speaker 47:22

Particularly if people haven't felt able to share anything with anybody else.

Speaker 1 47:25

And if you're the one safe person and there are feelings involved.

Speaker 47:29

Yeah. That's when it becomes really uncomfortable for everybody with potential consequences that nobody wants.

Speaker 1 47:37

And you'll notice we're both being quite careful in not naming names here. I'm sure people could recognise themselves if they listen back fully, or maybe not actually. But it's it's there. And then of course, there are so many other times where we hide. Again, we've talked about the ADHD thing a lot. But that too, that was almost like coming out all over again. And again, people that I've needed to feel safe and accepted by saying things like it doesn't exist.

Speaker 48:07

Yeah. You've had quite a few of those, haven't you?

Speaker 1 48:09

Yeah.

Speaker 48:10

Which has been really hard. Yeah for you.

Speaker 1 48:12

Yeah, yeah. Because of course RSD, rejection sensitive disability that you get with with ADHD as well. So that's just a little insight into our lives and and and how we met, but also how our sexuality has stacked against us. I've had shit from people at work about it at times. By and large, most people at work have been wonderful. It's never been managers really that have had an issue had the issue, but occasionally colleagues have been really shitty.

Speaker 48:44

Yeah.

Pride, Politics, Daily Calculations

Speaker 1 48:45

You know. But by and large, it's been really brilliant at work. There's never been an issue there at all. But for anyone again thinking that everybody now has it easy and it's just accepted it is not, you've only got to look at what's happening politically, you've only got to look at the the the rise of right-leaning politics and some of the comments that are being made. It's it's not always easy. The kids today don't have it easy. The adults who are still genuinely, genuinely afraid to be themselves and not having it easy. And so again, instead of othering people, if you can think of anything in your life where you felt that you you had to hide something about yourself or that you weren't good enough or that you could never admit to something, take it seriously and think about how bad that is. And for me, when people say, Why isn't there a straight pride? Because when do you ever need to announce yourself as straight? You don't. When do you when have you ever been in a situation where you've had to panic or worry about when is an appropriate time to tell people and whether you should? What if you had ever had to think about whether it's safe to book a holiday in that destination or to book a double room or whether you should have a twin or two rooms with an adjoining door? When have you ever had to stop and think about whether you are standing too close to your partner, whether it's safe to hold hands, and whether it's okay to take them as your plus one?

Speaker 50:19

I've had that recently, actually, fairly recent recently, with just that hesitation when I was describing my relationship with you and I said wife, and even now, and how many years have we been married now? Yeah, you know, even now, depending on where I am and the circumstances, I will still question that sometimes. So, how you know how sad that is that that still enters my brain, but I'd still think about that sometimes because of some of the bad reactions we've had in the past. Yeah. So anyway, anything else we need to say on this one, do you think? No, I don't think I think we've gone quite deeply. We've talked about lots of people with other crushes on as well, which has been interesting, lots of memories. But how many folks are you still in touch with? Uh I don't think any.

Speaker 1 51:03

Because I'm still in touch with a couple with a couple of people. I know you are.

Speaker 51:06

I know. Where I'd never I know Tamsin, I know that's the divorce proceedings, that is. I'm joking, I'm joking. I'm not friends with them as well.

Speaker 1 51:12

I know. But also where I'd never said a word, and yet it transpired quite recently that one of them had had a conversation with their daughter about how Daniel was interested, but it's never been talked openly.

Speaker 51:24

Cool, you're just gonna throw that one out. That's a dump dump dum dum dum dum. It's an East Ender moment now. That was. I was just like, it will be all be pushed at this rate. You heard it here first, folks. It's strange how it changes, though, isn't it? Because I know with those that I am sorry, that wasn't that wasn't me kicking you, just turned that.

Speaker 1 51:42

I've just squashed a bottle of lemon and lime. There's probably only one of them still in touch with who had that depth of feelings, and I still love them to bits now, they're one of my closest pals. But now I think, what?

Speaker 51:58

Well, Cas, I'm just you get out of jail card free card now. You just go for it, aren't you?

Decoy Crushes And Final Laughs

Speaker 1 52:04

Well, come on, who were the who were the the pop stars you had crushes on as a kid?

Speaker 52:08

What do you mean?

Speaker 1 52:09

Come on, think of somebody that you had a crush on when you were growing up, as a child, as a teen, as a young adult, that you now look at and go, how could I what? Not because Abra, Agnetta.

Speaker 52:23

Agnetta. Agnetta. So you see? And it's not that anything's changed about that. It's the blue eyeliner. It was the blue eyeliner who did it, eyeshadow, whatever.

Speaker 1 52:31

It's not that anything's changed about that person or they've suddenly stopped being attractive or anything, but you change and you grow and you get to know put a person from a different angle and go, isn't it odd that those feelings just aren't there?

Speaker 52:43

I know, and for me it was Lindsay what Lindsay Wagner. BioNick Woman. Yeah. I always talk about that on these if I get the chance.

Speaker 1 52:50

It was yeah, it was Lindsay Wagner. And for the record, now I'm just gonna say I'm immensely to this day very, very grateful to Rick Astley because in his nice, shiny, acceptable suits, I my my entire family believed for years I had a massive crush on Rick Astley. And actually, that just took people off the Kim Wild World trail.

Speaker 53:10

Oh, Kim Wilde.

Speaker 1 53:11

I think I think he had all his albums and some of his videos.

Speaker 53:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1 53:16

But yeah, it was yeah. Rick Astley was my decoy. So Rick, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm never gonna give you up.

Speaker 53:27

Has he got a podcast?

Where To Find Us Next

Speaker 1 53:28

Uh has he got a podcast? He should have. He should have a Rickcast. Yeah, definitely. A Rick Roll podcast. Anyway. I'll not like should we wrap it there? I think we should, don't you? Yeah. Okay, so until next time, we will see you next Tuesday.

Speaker 53:45

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