🎙️ S2 E17: Lost in Translation: The Neurodivergent Traits You’ve Got All Wrong

We were going to say the neurodivergent behaviours you've got all wrong, but it was a bit too long for the title space on our graphic! :D

This started out as an exploration of the things neurotypical people often misunderstand about ADHD and autism... it grew from a conversation we were having on the sofa.

For instance: interrupting can ruin a conversation in seconds, but what if the person doing it is trying to connect rather than compete? We get properly honest about one of the biggest flashpoints between neurotypical and neurodivergent communication: the mid-sentence jump-in, the sudden personal anecdote, the “I promise I’m listening” blurting that lands like rudeness.

We unpack what’s going on under the bonnet: empathy expressed through shared stories, the urge to be relatable, and the working memory panic that makes a thought feel like it’ll disappear if it’s not said now. That leads us into the messy reality of meetings and networking, where you can either speak up and get judged, or stay silent and lose the insight you actually bring. We also share practical tools that help in the moment, from quick notes and voice notes to setting expectations with the people around you.

Then we widen the lens to other neurodivergent traits that get misunderstood all the time: oversharing, info dumping, going quiet, delayed replies, rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD), blunt honesty, eye contact extremes, and processing delays. We keep it real, we keep it funny, and we aim for something useful: language you can use to explain yourself, and empathy you can offer others without lowering standards.

Subscribe for more neurodiversity-friendly conversations, share this with someone who’s ever been misread, and if it resonates, leave us a review and tell us which moment hit hardest.

Transcript

Welcome And The Inevitable Interruption

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is Autumnly Off Topic where we talk books, brands, business and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I'm Astra and Tad. Let's dive in. Welcome back to Autumnly Off Topic. Today we're going to be talking about interrupting. You couldn't even let me finish the sentence.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Sorry, I got really excited then. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I've done it again. Start again, Tad. Should we start again or should we keep going? No, let's just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Because that is actually quite on brand for what we're going to be talking about, isn't it? It is,

Why Interrupting Gets Misread

SPEAKER_00 0:28

yes. So today we're talking about things that neurotypical people often misunderstand about those of us who are slightly neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

So the the thing where somebody interrupts part way through a sentence. That is exactly what we need to be talking about. That's exactly what today's episode is going to kind of hinge around. Hinge around? Can you hinge around something? I don't know if you can hinge around something. It's like when people say centre around. That used to drive us mad in journalists around. Yeah. Centre around something, or you're not in the centre.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

No, no, definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Anyway, this is setting up the show nicely. So the idea is that there are so many behaviours that neurodivergent people naturally do that often get misread. So this isn't about excusing anything, it's about kind of offering more of a translation service between two different operating systems.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

A translation service. Yeah. Good luck then with that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I think the interrupting thing is the most common flashpoint, we see, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. So as you've demonstrated, Ash. Yeah, so beautifully. You do that quite a lot. Neurotypical people might read that as being rude, dominating, or my point is more important than your point. Yeah, making it all about me, that kind of thing. And that interpretation. Ironically, I interrupted to say making it all about me. That interpretation kind of makes sense if you don't understand what's going on underneath. So the thing we need to remember is that interrupting is kind of recognition. Particularly if somebody's interrupting and saying something about, well, you know, they've done that. Where I used to work, there used to be somebody who was affectionately referred to as blacker dog. Because they always used to say that if you've got a black dog, you'd have a blacker one.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Right, okay. But hasn't everybody got somebody like that in their office usually?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

But the point is, that's probably now we understand, well, that's probably neurodivergence. Because it's not about somebody trying to hijack actually to a neurodivergent mind, whether it's autism, ADHD, something else on the spectrum, the ones where it commonly shows up. It's actually to try and show empathy. It's where all those personal anecdotes start to flow in. Yeah. And it's rather than some somebody trying to compete, it's more about saying, hey, I get it, I understand, I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

But it's building that commonality as well, isn't it? Building that, yeah, as you said, that that connection with somebody else. So you can making yourself more relatable, having that relatability in the conversation. That's really important for me. And we talk about that a lot with what in our everyday work, don't we? And what we do, I talk about that a lot with content and books and building that relatability in your text, in your words. And that's spoken words, of course, as well as written. So of course, naturally, we're going to be more predisposed to that, I think. And it's it's there's total misunderstandings sometimes around why somebody might do that and what's going on, as you said, if you like under the bonnet, as it were. You know, what's going on inside to to lead to those those behaviours?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I do wonder if a lot of the time you hear people say maybe it's after a networking event or something, oh, they always make it all about them.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

But what if it's not? What if that's neurodivergent person trying to relate to what it is you're saying, trying to show that they can relate to you? It's a it's a building relationship block rather than actually trying to make it all about them. So there's so much potential misunderstanding going on.

Oversharing And Personal Anecdotes

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah. There's often in the same way with the oversharing. You know, if people overshare, that's a that's very typical of somebody that might be on that spectrum. And sometimes I'll do that because I'm so worried about forgetting what I want to say that I think will add to the conversation, will benefit somebody else. And that might, again, that might come across as really rude, but it's not there to make me stand out. Quite the opposite, actually.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Or the oversharing thing now, or the oh well, both.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

But both.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Like when you told my our new class of students that Mamad Bell was twice the year twice the normal size. Thanks for that, Ash. Last time I let you come in while the surgeon is telling me about my internal Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Not one of my proudest moments, but actually circumstances. So joking aside though, you joke, sorry about that, yeah. It was a bum deal, but you know, anyway, somebody had to say it. Yeah, you um and yeah, but that was that was a prime example of where, you know, oversharing.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

You just overshare your stuff, not my stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

That's completely taken me off track now. You can carry on now. Next time I'm not going to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

But that time you had the smear and the nurse said you got a lovely tight cervix. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

As in not in your service.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I think it's I think it's probably better PR for you to say that you've got a nice tight cervix than for you to tell a bunch of 20 plus new students that your wife's bowel is twice the normal.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

I don't think it was the first weekend. I think it might have been the weekend, second or third weekend.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

No, it was the first one because we were doing the two weekends.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

It's my fault again. Absolutely. I'm just gonna sit here and just sulk for a while and I'm not interrupting again. So over to you, Tad. Solo podcast.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Before we went on air, dear listeners, I just said to Ash, do you want to lead this one? And she said, No, no, I'm not in the mindset for it. You do it, you do it. And now she's sulking and not saying anything and saying it's a solo podcast. Anyway. Do you want to joking aside though, Ash, do you want to give an example of No, I don't what should you do if I actually did that?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

That'd be quite funny. I'm interrupting though, interrupting sheep. Go on, would you like to me to give an example?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Sure, we'll give an example of where somebody might interrupt. So let's say, for instance, you're chatting to someone and they start talking about this terrible holiday they've just got back from. What you might what might you say?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Oh, Crumbs, that happened to me. I was in, I don't know, Greece recently, and this this was awful, and this place we stayed at, and it was terrible. The food was awful, and I'll go into it and then I'll go, and then I got really badly sunburnt.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Well, that plot that time when you were a kid and you weren't on holiday with your mum and dad and you ended up coming away from Chapel St. Leonard's or wherever it was. No, it was Mablethorpe. Mablethorpe.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Sorry to anybody listening in from Mablethorpe. We had the most horrendous time when we went to Mablethorpe. It was all it was more the place that we were staying in that was awful. It wasn't the asn't the location, it was the the accommodation, if she says quickly, backtracking.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

No, but if you if you said that, that wouldn't be because you were trying to say your experience was worse than the other person. You would be commiserating with relating to.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

But what happens if that other person is silently thinking, I was just going to tell my story, and they've now completely come in and just stolen all the limelight? And hey, I do that too, I get it. Because I'll be thinking, how can I relate to that? How can I show them that I'm listening and paying attention? Or I could share the story when something similar happened to me. It's to show we're actually paying attention and listening, not actually to say mine's better or worse than yours.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Not diverting it to being about me.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

No, it's about creating a shared experience.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, it's that relatability again that we're trying to build that can be misconstrued, miss, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

It's a conversational hug that can be all too often misconstrued as a barrier.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah. And I think that's what I love love about, which is refreshing, when you get a group of neurodivergent people together, we have that quite a bit on some of our groups because a lot of us are neurodivergent. And we have all these different tangents, tangents pinging off against one another.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And you just accept there's a gazillion and one and a half finished conversations floating around in the ether. Yeah, with that. And they'll just restart like a month later.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

With all those single socks, you know, all those single socks that just disappear into the ether of life. You know, those socks that you put in the room. Yes, and that's another parameter of how weird your brain is. The washing machine, and somehow you take them out of the washing machine, and then you've lost a sock even though you've got to be a little bit more than a lot of-counted them all in, but you can't counted them all out again, but that like I do with Sharpies on my workshops.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

The difference is that you never find them. Why the way you're pointing your finger, please. I did accidentally get you boob then, didn't I? Sorry. Not sorry at all. The difference is that you never actually find the odd socks.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

But with those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Oh, we can pick the odd conversations up, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

So when was it that we were trying to remember the name of the place that we did a podcast in before that's Robin Hood County? Yeah. Was that yesterday or the day before? Edwin. Yeah, but we couldn't remember the name of it. No. And then this morning, that was yesterday. Was it Edwin Sto? Yeah. That was what, yesterday, day before?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

You just came out with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Yes, and then today in the middle of the day, just went Edwinstow, and Ash just went, Yeah, that's right, and we carried on. But what? So again, a half-finished conversation is hanging in the ether.

Urgency And Working Memory Panic

SPEAKER_00 9:11

We started to talk about something else. The other reason that a neurodivergent person might interrupt was you started to touch on this earlier, was the kind of urgency piece, that fear that your your thought will vanish if you don't say it straight away.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, I that happens to me all the time. And I'm like, very often that's why I love voice notes on my phone now, because that's why I constantly use my phone for that. Because if I've got an idea, it might be I've got something to do, but if I'm in a conversation with somebody, I want to say it almost. I need that to be able to say that and just store them up on my voice on my voice notes and then play them to them at the end so I don't interrupt. So that's the only reason. Occasionally, when I've had, I will confess, occasionally when I've had maybe differing political views to others, I might have lost my rag a little bit and interrupted. But generally, it's because I want to get involved in the conversation and I want to share that before it goes, because I'm terrified of it going and I won't remember it. Yeah. Because that's another anxiety thing for me a lot.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

So it's about working memory, isn't it? It's not so much about impatience, it's about your working memory, and that's why meetings, business meetings with several different people, and it can be really challenging for neurodivergent people because our heads have so many things going at once that very often if a thought comes in and we don't share it, it'll be gone again. And you might think, well, if it goes, it can't be that important, it doesn't matter. But that can swing one of two ways if you're in a business meeting, for instance, either the neurodivergent person who could be really good for that meeting because we do tend to think outside of the box and spot patterns and synchronicities that other people don't see and opportunities that others don't see, but we can either be constantly interrupting, as it's perceived, or we can just sit there and not engage at all because we're too so busy trying to focus on not interrupting that actually we just go really quiet and sink into a corner somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

And think about the energy that takes to do that, because you had no wonder at the end of maybe quite an intense meeting at work.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

You know, even if it's a relatively small amount of people in the room, but it's an you know, there's lots of things, ideas pinging around. How it's not surprising then that you're absolutely drained sometimes at the end of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

It's really hard, isn't it? Trying to hold one thought while still listening to everybody else. I can listen to everybody else and have a gazillion and one thoughts flowing through, and that's okay, I can do that. But trying to hold just one single thought until it is appropriate to speak and listen to everybody else. It's a lot I don't know. Trying to juggle with one hand.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

So do you because for me often I have to make a I'm just realising this even now, just as we're speaking about it, but I will have to make a conscious choice to choose one of those two options. So it's either I'm part of this discussion and I'm really in it and I'm part of it, but I'm probably not going to be able to remember the thing that's in my mind right now. Because I the chances of remembering both of those and being fully immersed in both of both of those elements is quite unusual. So what you'll often see me do if I'm in a meeting, I'll scribble something down. So if I don't write it down, that's why I survive on you hate lists with a vengeance. That's my my kind of stability to do that. I need to write everything down so that even if it's just two or three words to remind me, so it'll trigger the right memory and it'll take me back to that space where I can share that at a later date when it's the right, you know, right timing.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

But it is, but it is, it's that frantic. What's really interesting, it's making me think about even about how I take notes and I and also when I journal, sometimes I get frustrated with myself because I am pressing so hard on the paper, and I've just realized I think some of that is getting it down before I forget it. Yeah. It's almost like my thoughts are running so wildly that I'm struggling to actually temper my speed with which I write, because I write so messily I can't actually read it back. And very often, sometimes if it's just open journey, I don't necessarily need to read it back. But it's that, and I don't know if you have that, but I get hand cramps quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

It doesn't surprise me when I look at how hard you press into the paper. That's why every now and then I've I've tried buying you a fountain pen, because I know you can't press down that hard. Yeah. But it just means you don't use the pen.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

I know, or I just break loads of them, wouldn't I? I always broken nibs. I know. So yeah, it's it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because that's suddenly starting it's getting me thinking about even with things like journeying and stuff like that, where I don't, you know, I I actually sometimes find it I have to stop myself sometimes because I feel frustrated at myself for not being able to keep up with my thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going off slightly, but I think it's all relevant, isn't it?

Practical Ways To Manage It

SPEAKER_00 13:42

So what how do we tackle this then? Because understanding why it happens isn't necessarily going to uh undo the impact that it might have.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

No. So how how do we deal with it? What what do we Well there's some of the things we can put in place to help ourselves, and I think one of those things is what I've just talked about making notes, either voice notes. And if you're if that's not possible, I mean sometimes it's if you're on something like a Zoom session, for instance, it can be easier to do that because you can put it on mute and you could possibly do that just for a few seconds to make a voice note and then come back into the the meeting. But if you're in a face-to-face meeting, that's not always possible. But if you're possible, that's why I always like to keep a little notebook in my in my bag or something, so I can make a quick note if I need to.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I guess that's also where some of these new visual reminders, yeah. These AI tools that are coming out now that are more and more to document it if you're going into a meeting and it will automatically take your notes. Yeah. So now we can get that on Zoom as well. But we now have there are now tiny little devices that you know will automatically record a meeting and chuck it into your phone, yeah, for instance. I guess you'd you'd need to let people know you were using that beforehand, and that's at least gonna help you come back afterwards, but they still won't help in the moment with holding that thought and not then withholding your input from the meeting. So, how do we get to the point where we can explain to people what's going on for us before we get to the point where they just think we're being a blacker dog?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Well, we start by talking about it more like we are today for the start. Because for a lot of people, this might be completely new. For others, it might be duh, of course I knew that. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's about the situations that you're in, the workspaces you work in, you live in, you know, all the people around you, if you're surrounded by other neurodivergent people, that may not come up. That might not even be something on on the periphery, you know. Whereas if you're in with a group of neurotypical people alongside neurodivergent people, some of those differences and those challenges will be more evident. Yeah. So it's more likely that there's an opportunity to have a conversation about it. So it really depends who, you know, where you are, what you're doing in your life, and what you know, what working life life is like and the people that are surrounding you.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, and sometimes if we're mid conversation, yeah, and I feel the urge to say something, something sometimes I'll say something like, Hold that thought for something, let me just say this before my ADHD blank brain eats it and it disappears forever. And say the thing and then say, sorry, carry on.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, yeah, I do that. I always apologise afterwards if I've interrupted. Nine times out of ten, I will, but on the rare occasions, and I know I've done it quite recently, on an online meeting, and it was because I was in overwhelm, I think, with work and everything else coming up, and I did it and I didn't apologise, and I beat myself up about that for days and days and days, in fact, weeks, about it. And I said, gee, and of course, that's that other thing around that self-harming, self-loathing thing, yeah, and our own confidence and uh, you know, a self-worth. So that can eat into that too if we're not careful with that and we keep an eye on things.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

And at a very basic level, sometimes if a neurodivergent people interrupts, it's kind of a compliment because it's it's really saying I I hear and I'm I'm listening and I I want to make I want to make a positive impact on your day here. So it's an interesting one, isn't it? But there's so many other areas where there can be misunderstandings between neurotypical and neurodivergent people, which is one of the reasons we both talk about this so much, because you know, we're out there in the business world. I like to think we're trying to make a positive impact wherever we can, but my hope is that by sharing more of this stuff, it will just bring more understanding. There was a talk I delivered quite a few months back now where off the cuff somebody had said, Can you talk about ADHD? And I just reeled off some of the stuff that felt obvious to me. But afterwards a lady came to me crying to say it was the first time anybody had ever ever spoken about ADHD and neurodivergence where she'd actually really felt it and understood, and it had really ticked a lot of boxes and answered a lot of queries she had about a really close relationship of hers. Yeah. So I th I think we just need to be we need to be talking about it more and just being really, really basic and blunt about it. This is what's going on. Let's not try and make this rocket science.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Let's just try and address some of these issues or potential issues head on. You know, sharing our own story is very often how we communicate empathy and build rapport. Doesn't mean that we're shifting focus back to ourselves. We're talking about ourselves to actually bridge the gap to somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

I was gonna say, I see that that building, that's the the bridge to you know, that connection with somebody else with another human. Yeah, it's the bridge to the rapport, the bridge, the bridge of rapport, yeah, which we all want to get to. We all talk about that in our content, don't we? But in those those conversations, those everyday conversations.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

It's not saying let's talk about me, it's saying you're not alone, I've experienced this too.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah, my my circumstances might be different, but and actually I can hear myself saying that. I've said that to people in conversations where my converse my my situation may be slightly different to yours, but I completely get that because you know, at this time this happened with me, and I just wanted to share it with you. And it's that is that down to the individual though, the neurodivergent, to to it to talk about why they felt the need to share that. Maybe we need to do more of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I think it's also though, us taking a step back and recognising that we do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Because I've become far more aware since my diagnosis and since reading enough about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Well we both haven't we? Because of your diagnosis. I know Bailey, I know, he's he's heaving a sigh. Poor old Bailey.

Other Neurodivergent Misunderstandings

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Well, I mean, we're gonna we're gonna cover some other neurodivergent behaviours that that might create some kind of misunderstanding with neuro with our neurotypical peers as we go through this series. But before we wrap this one up, what are some of the other behaviours that could be misunderstood? So things like why we info dump. Info dumping is a big one, isn't it? Yeah. Why we sometimes stop replying to messages? You know, I've just had one of these where I was scrolling through messages, actually from from another neurodivergent friend, Pam, hello, if you're listening. Hi, Pam. Big waves to Pam Case. And I was scrolling back through my WhatsApps and realised there were three or four voice messages that she sent me a couple of weeks back. And when I remembered, in the moment I was at an event and I'd gone, oh voice messages, can't listen to those now, must go back and listen to those later. And then forgot all about them.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And then, like two weeks later, I had to go and say, I'm really, really sorry, this is what happened, and it was fine, she gets it. But what can often happen is we can forget those messages are there for ages, and then some of us can feel so shameful for having not looking at me.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I've done that so many times.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

I was just staring at your face actually, but you happened to be in the morning. There you go, I'm making it all about me again too. Making it all about you. Oh no. We can feel then so shameful about having not replied that we feel we can't we feel we've lost the the friendship and we've we've lost the relationship and we can't possibly get back in touch. And then RSD kicks in. Yeah. And then remind people what that is. So rejection sensitive dysphoria, that's that's where we can lose friendships.

unknown 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Because we just realise I've been so shit, I haven't replied, I can't possibly go back to them now. How awful must I think I am? Whereas if I do that now and I recognise I tend to go back, force myself to go back and just say, I'm really sorry, brain fart, this is what happened. I've just scrolled back and found them.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Whereas whereas I'm more likely to there's a part of me wanting to do that, but the other part is so caught up in the you know, self-harming aspect in terms of you know, saying to myself, I'm so shit, I'm a really bad friend, I'm not a proper colleague, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Which again, given the thousands and thousands of times that neurodivergent kids have been told they are wrong or less than compared to neurotypical kids. It's no wonder so many of us carry those often erroneous ideas about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Good word erroneous. Lovely sexy spelling too.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

It's a sexy spelling. Stygian is still my favourite word. Crepuscular.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

And it looks like something you should squeeze, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

No, it doesn't. It's a beautiful word for twilight. Oh my god. Anyway, mostly off topic. What about and here's another perfect example. Why we can sometimes seem really blunt or overly honest.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

I think I do the opposite. I don't think I'm ever like that, do you? You are. Am I? Yeah. Not outside of here though. Am I?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Can you exercise not being so much inside of here as well?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

But seriously, anybody that knows my this I'm opening this a can of worms up now, aren't I? Am I really blunt sometimes?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I think we can I think we can be blunt.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, but I'm asking, so I'm like, this is where I'm making it all about me. Because I'm just intrigued by it. But am I am I not giving it a little bit more?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Somebody somebody walks in and that we know quite well and says, um, what do you think about this outfit? Does it suit me?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

And you think it looks fucking hideous. What are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I'll say it's nice, but I'm not sure about that element of maybe that isn't quite your colour, or have you thought about doing I'd I'd I'd frame it that way. I might say, yeah, but I wouldn't be you'd be more blunt than me with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I'm just going, no. Do not wear that ever again.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Because I'd be too scared about getting it wrong.

unknown 23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

That's what button. Well you would still say, um, be enough about your body language to show that.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yes, I'd give it away because I've got a face that shows every emotion, so I've had it really. However much I think I'm hiding stuff, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah. But also, and I remember having this all through school. If somebody would ask me for an opinion, I'd give an opinion and then they'd get upset with me, and then I'd end upset because I'd upset people. And I I would always say, but why do people ask for my opinion if they don't want my opinion? If you're gonna ask me for an opinion, yeah. Does it do you think this hair colour would suit me? No.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Hang on a minute though, but is aren't there some people, and I know I've done it sometimes, you can be selective opinion seeking. So you're selective about who you ask for that opinion.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

So sometimes I will now say, are you wanting me to make you feel good, or you're actually wanting a genuine opinion? Yeah. Do you want me to give you some confidence or do you want an honest answer which kind of says it in its own right?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So taking this back, because obviously we're talking about work settings as well here. So, how many times has that have you seen that happen in your working life where you've somebody's been opinion seeking, but maybe here's my new website.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

What do you think? Um, is it actually finished? Is there any way to take it at all? Which of these three logos do you prefer? None, they're all shit. Or the other way around, yeah, and I've been known to do this with with friends who know me well enough to get away with it.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

D do these trousers look okay? Totally. Yes, wear those more often. Yeah, baby. But you know it can go both ways, can't it? Yeah. Doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to pounce on them. I'm suddenly gonna pounce on them, but if they look really hot, I'm gonna tell you they look really hot. They really make your ass look good. You know, it works both ways. So because you're thinking about somebody's ass looking good in a pair of trousers. Yours, I'm not sure. But it won't be mine.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

No, it is. Anyway, carry on, carry on.

Eye Contact And Processing Delay

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Eye contact, why eye contact can be difficult.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Oh, goodness me. I go one of two, I can go both ways in terms of eye contact.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

I can either be can't you clarify?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I can either be, because I was always I learnt that to make eye contact is polite, you have to do that. You don't turn your back, you never turn your back on people, you always have you don't turn your back on people, and you always make eye contact. So I can either go and perhaps be too much in that eye contact zone of making too much eye contact, because I've got quite big eyes anyway, so therefore I'm like flies. I don't know, the me frog eyes. They're not frog eyes. But anyway, so I can be quite intense with my eye contact, or it'll be the opposite. And sometimes if it's a one-to-one Hold that thought for a second.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Why? This is the perfect example of us talking about how we hold on to things for so long and let them bother us. When Asher was at school, her best mate used to say she'd got frog eyes. And even now you have beautiful eyes, and you still will go, no, I've got frog eyes. Perfect example. Riv it, rivet.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Anyway, that was me being a frog. Could you do that? You're better than me at doing that. Is it actually a knee-dip rather than a rib-a rib? Yeah, okay. Thank you. That's lovely. There you go. Frogs. Get a good clock. I love a good frog. God, I don't like frogs' legs though.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

They'd be lost without them. How would they hop without their legs?

SPEAKER_01 26:27

I know, but I have don't those in France, and I don't like frogs. I've eaten snails, but not frog's eggs. Or legs, not eggs.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Well, how do you know that you don't like frogs' legs?

SPEAKER_01 26:37

They're supposed to be like chicken, like everybody says that about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

My dad once told me at a work function that was eating frog's legs, and I absolutely believed it, but now as a grown-up I suspect they were chicken goujons. Because it's got me the quote of the fuggers. My dad was a lorry driver. What's that? Can't imagine what you think. Can you imagine going to like a big deer, uh some, I don't know, some big hall or working men's club or something, and them serving up frog's legs in Leicestershire, England.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Maybe not.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

I think they were probably chicken gojongons. Easy mistake to make. But for years, yes, I've tried frogs' legs.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

If I was a frog, I'd have legs like chicken gojons, because they're quite short and stubby, aren't they? And I'm quite short and stubby, so that would make sense. Chickens' legs aren't short and stubby. No, no, they're not. No, but if they were. If I was a chicken, no, but if I was a chicken, I'd have short, stubby legs. But you haven't got short, stubby legs as a grown-up, so why would you have short stubby legs? We get to hit us.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Why would you and hold on?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Hang on, no, we need to stop that now. We need to stop the awesome me off topic and go back on topic, I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

But why would you have short stubby legs? You've got lovely legs.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

What's Okay, thank you, that's good. So I don't understand. Right, so where were we? Eye contact and why it can be different. Okay, so eye contact. So I can go extremes.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Either that or so you're either gonna stare at somebody like a total lunatic.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

No, or can I say the other thing? When I'm in a one-to-one with people, I suddenly I find myself myself really focusing on where my eyes are going. Are they looking at eyebrows? Are they looking at chin? Are they looking at noses? I've got a thing about everybody looking at my nose. Just bizarre. And then I'm focusing, so focusing on what part of the face I'm looking at that I'm actually losing a lot of the conversation because I'm not. I can go into that zone as well. Does that make any kind of sense?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yes. Well, sometimes it's a bit like being in the showers at secondary school, isn't it? And thinking, where do I look? Where do I look? Oh no, don't they think I'm looking at their boobs? No, nobody knows I like girls. No, no, no. Oh no, don't look at their eyes, they'll think I'm gazing at them, where do I look? Look at the feet.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

You just run through them and don't and don't do anything. Just don't look head down. Don't make just shut your eyes. Just run. Just run, but not run too much, but enough. Let's not go there. That's a terrible visual. Anyway, carry on. So yeah, eye contact. What about you? So yeah, eye contact.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

I don't think I do particularly struggle with eye contact. But I do ever. But I do sometimes get myself into a flap where my brain will go, You're good at making eye contact, make eye contact. And then I'll start this internal dialogue that'll go, oh shit, that's too much eye contact. Oh no, they're gonna think they're gonna think you're fancy, or they're gonna think you're a psycho, or they're gonna think, oh, look somewhere else. Look, no, not the chest, look up there. No, no, no, no. Look at the lips. No, because then they'll see that I'm looking at the lips and they'll think I want to kiss them. Oh my god, I don't, I'm just trying to oh my god, it's the one I find. Coffee, coffee, where's the coffee?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

I find the lip thing really, and I get that because a lot a lot of neurodivergent people, from what I understand, can focus on the lips.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

If you struggle with eye contact, look at the lips or the forehead.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, but for me, that's a very intimate part of the face. So if somebody starts to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, if they're looking at your forehead, I've got the staring into my third eye. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. I feel like I'm not my lips.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

But that I find quite I've struggled with that a little bit. So it's bizarre, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

What about, and well, we can dig into some of these in future episodes, but very, very quickly, here's another one. Why we sometimes need processing time before answering? So, for instance, you'll sometimes say something, and I'll say, What was that? And then by the time you've started to tell me what it was, my brain has caught up and heard it. Okay. So there's a delay in processing time, and you'll go, Well, why do you why did you just ask me to tell you again when you obviously already heard it? Because I hadn't heard it, my ears had heard it, but my brain hadn't processed the sounds. Right, okay. The processing delay. And you have that terribly. I did that on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Did you like what I did? Did you like what I did then?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, it was hilarious. But that is what you do. I'll be like, Ash, have you seen this? And hold up random Facebook video or something. Yeah. And then I'll just sit there holding the phone, and there'll be such a delay. And I'll just breathe. Ash, Ash. You'll go and make a cup of tea, three-quarters of meal. Yeah. Pop to the petrol station, come back again. And then she'll go, what? And a lot of neurodivergent people have processing delay, and it's not that they can't hear you, but there is sometimes a delay between the time it takes for the brain to process the words.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Being able to answer. So sometimes there'll be processing delay.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

And what I want to say here is we're having a lot of laughter, everybody. We're not laughing at, we're laughing because we're laughing at our own behaviours and things that help us, and humour for me, is a way of going through that and understanding it in a better way.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

One of the next points I was going to raise was why we always overexplain. Yeah, I'm glad you go.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

But we do laugh a lot about all sorts of things, don't we? So I don't want any if anybody's listening to this and thinking, for goodness sake, that's really quite derogatory, or we're taking the Mickey a bit too much. Honestly, it's only because we kind of understand it and we're trying to explain things from our perspective in a way that makes sense to us and hopefully will resonate with some of you as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

And also remember, it's not the same for everyone. There's a massive spectrum

Rehearsing Conversations And Overexplaining

SPEAKER_00 31:40

here. So for instance, rehearsing conversations can be something that people do. I don't do that. Asher does it a lot. I do it all the time. A lot. So it'll be like, well, you've got to phone the doctors for that appointment, and she'll say, Right, right. So I'll phone up and then I'll wait for them to answer, and then I'll say, Yes, I'm Asher from yeah, this is my postcode, and then I'll say that this has happened and then that's been happening, and I'll just sit there looking at it. You are actually rehearsing an entire conversation with the doctor's receptionist, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I do that frequently.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And she can have been rattling on for ages before I realised that I don't need to contribute to this conversation because she's literally just rehearsing.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

We had a classic example of that this week. So somebody had sent for a pair of shoes, got a similar name to me, about the same name as me, not the same surname, and basically I got delivered these shoes I hadn't ordered. So they weren't.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

So it was just delivered to Asher with our street address, wasn't it? We didn't know there was another Asher looking by.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

So anyway, so we so I opened the box to see what it was. I thought, oh, a present. So a little bit shoes. I'm sure I didn't order these.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I got all excited and thought it was that present I had ordered you that hasn't arrived yet.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Okay, how exciting that still hasn't arrived. I look forward to that and whatever it may be. Anyway, so I said to this person, I've put it out through social and just said, you know, let me know and I'll be so I started lurking outside so I could deliver it to them. But then I kind of before I even went to that point, I was rehearsing what I was gonna do to go out there, where I was gonna stand, what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah, I was saying just put a note back in the Facebook group and say, okay, I'll leave them, I'll leave them at the side of our drive. But no, Asher's like, I'm standing outside with them right now next to the car. You don't know if they're ready to come and pick the shoes up, just put them out on the drive.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Nobody's gonna do that because somebody might nick them. So, but yeah, but what I'm saying with that, I'd rehearsed it all. Excuse me, I'm gonna cough, Tad. Excuse me, listeners.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Go on then.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

I'm sorry about it. Interrupting again.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I thought you've got a little cough.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

I have got a cough. And yeah, and so I rehearsed it before I even went out there. So I'd do that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Do you know what? There are so many of these. I know. There are so many of these, I suspect we'll probably do a another episode. In fact, in fact, maybe the next episode will carry on. Because what prompted this for us originally is we were gonna tell you about trying to find a pair of headphones.

Brand Loyalty And The Missing Headphones

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

I've got this. This is what we call the dropped intro, because this is where this whole podcast came from, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:00

We've got like four minutes because I've got a coaching calling, five minutes I need to be finished by.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

I thought you weren't on there till quarter past. Oh, I thought it was half past, so I'm chatting away. I do apologise.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

So, anyway, I've got this thing with you know, sometimes we'll love brands. Brands when it comes to why do we love brands? Yeah, we have a particular allegiance to brands. Like most of my jeans are Levi's. My head just went crack then. Most of my trainers are Nike. Yeah. You know, the odd pair of Adidas, but the point is, most of my wired headphones that I use for coaching calls, little wired ones with a mic on, just because I don't have to then worry about the battery running out. I've got a thing for school candies. I love my school candies.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

There you go, sponsorship opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

School candies, school candy are my preferred brand.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

We both like them. Of wired hint, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Wired earpods. Yeah. So Asher keeps losing hers. I have bought Asher. I also need more skull candies. I don't know how many times I've bought Asher earbuds, but she loses everyone, and every time she throws into a panic, and I end up giving her mine. So we got to the point where we could now only find two pairs of school candies, and we went to try and find them, and Ash said, Are they in my laptop bag? Yes. So I'll go into the laptop bag. There are no school candy headphones, but there are a pair of light up thumbs.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Everybody should have those in their laptop bag. Everybody listening now, if you haven't got them, you need to go and get some laptop bags.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

We want to pretend we're throwing a glowing orb of light at somebody.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

But you always do, don't you, in every meeting you ever go into. If you don't do, what's going on with you? Our tip from this podcast today is to always have a pair of light up thumbs.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Which reminds me, I need to go and order some more school candies. But anyway, I think there's so much more we could be talking about here that maybe we continue this into the next episode. What do you reckon, Lance?

SPEAKER_01 35:56

I reckon so. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

So let's do a double on on neurodivergent stuff that might seem just really weird us to neurotypical people.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah. Okay, we sound a bit new a bit weird anyway, weird ass anyway, so it's fine. Oh, yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Embrace the weirdness.

Wrap Up And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Anyway, on that note, we'd better wrap up.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

We have. So you can go to your meeting.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I can guess my meeting and go and have a wee before then, which is an overshare.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

That was an overshare, Tesla. Is that with your unfeasibly large bladder?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Unfeasibly large bladder. It's the bell. Dear listeners, until next time, we will see you next Tuesday. You've been listening to Awesomely Off Topic. If you've enjoyed this, hit follow and subscribe. And if you want more, come and find Autumnly Off Topic on social media. That's where all the extra bits live. Stay awesome, stay off topic, and we'll see you next time.