Awesomely Off-Topic: Books, Brands, Business and Everything Else We’re Not Supposed to Say Out Loud
🎙️ Awesomely Off-Topic is the podcast that dives headfirst into the business of being brilliantly, messily, unapologetically you.
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Awesomely Off-Topic: Books, Brands, Business and Everything Else We’re Not Supposed to Say Out Loud
🎙️ S2 E25: Please, Monetise Your Hobby
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We challenge the growing trend that says getting paid for what you love automatically destroys it, and we argue the real joy-killer is obligation created by poor boundaries and the wrong business model. We share personal examples from books, podcasting, crafting and coaching, then answer a listener’s question about staying grounded and finding stillness with an ADHD brain and a busy life.
• backlash against hustle culture and the rise of “don’t monetise your hobby”
• why payment is not the problem, and where joy actually gets eroded
• protecting values so money does not dictate creative choices
• practical examples from books, microbooks and podcasting without chasing sponsorship
• how crafting costs make monetisation sensible, not “icky”
• common joy-sappers: unwanted commissions, inventory pressure, deadlines and access expectations
• boundaries around time, clients and scaling, plus the case for portfolio careers
• finding stillness and balance with journalling, time outside, reading and diarised rest
• who benefits when artists and makers feel guilty charging, including gendered judgement in “craft” spaces
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Welcome And The Monetisation Backlash
SPEAKER_03This is an Awesomely Off Topic where we talk books, brands, business, and everything else we're not supposed to say out loud.
SPEAKER_02I'm Ashra and Pat, let's dive in. Hello and welcome to another Awesomely Off Topic. Today we're talking about something that's a little bit contentious. I mean I don't think it should be. Neither of us think it should be. And this is this whole idea that seems to be becoming a bit of a trend at the moment, where we are telling people that they should stop trying to monetize their hobbies. I've had a couple of people say that to me over the past couple of weeks. Asher, you've had people mention it to you as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's come at the same time, isn't it? In two separate or three or four separate conversations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So we thought it was about time to talk about it. Totally. It seems to be popping up quite a bit on social channels as well. It's kind of it's kind of sitting within that kind of broader backlash against hustle culture, those kind of side hustling everywhere and the idea that every waking hour needs to be productive. There are certainly places that are popping up online telling people not to turn every hobby into a business, but there are also plenty of people saying that they have monetised hobbies without destroying the joy. And that seems to be the argument behind it. This whole idea that you need to protect your hobbies at all costs, and the second you start monetising them, that goes away. So I think that's bollocks, really. Ash and I both say the same. Yeah, yeah. The problem isn't getting paid for something that you love. I think the problem where you start to eat away the joy when you are monetising your hobby, I think the joy is at risk when the conditions you put around getting paid for your hobby remove the reasons you love doing it. So they're two different things. There's nothing wrong with monetising something that you love doing, so long as you're ring fencing it enough in such a way that it doesn't start to turn into a job or feeling like a job. Feeling like a drag. Or a drag. And I don't think that happens automatically, isn't it? Asher, you you've technically monetised your hobby, haven't you?
SPEAKER_03It's funny, isn't it? Talking about this earlier in the week, we were discussing some of the future podcasts, and this came up, didn't it? And I said, I had that realisation, like, I've turned I've exactly done that. I've turned my hobby into a job that makes me a decent income, and that I and more importantly, I absolutely love. Yeah. And I could never get tired of it. I can't imagine ever getting tired of it. And actually, I think that's what adds something to the mix that's really powerful as a sales tool, because when you're enthusiastic and passionate about what you do, whether it be a hobby that you've turned into a business, that comes through to your potential clients, and that's why they want to work with you sometimes because a lot of the time, because you've got that enthusiasm, that joy in what you do, you know what you're talking about, plus you enjoy the whole process with that client, that customer. And I think that's really that's a wonderful thing about turning a hobby into a business.
SPEAKER_02Totally. And for years we've been saying to people, look, you don't have to sit in that kind of grey, soul-crushing job that you hate and and separate, have this kind of schizophrenic attitude to life where you have your work life and your personal life, you just have a life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So why on earth have we started treating earning money from something you that you love as though it somehow contaminates it? It it feels bonkers for me.
SPEAKER_03Surely the the bonkers bit is well, not bonkers bit, the bit I struggle with is the bit the other way around. So I get it, because we're you know if you're entrepreneurial, always looking for some way that you can you can turn something into a business proposition, you can make money, right? That's part of the part of the role, isn't it? Surely of an entrepreneur. Yeah. But it's when people are kind of latching onto something and then presenting it as a as a passion or a or a a hobby when it's not necessarily that to them. They can see the business deal in it and not being totally upfront about that.
SPEAKER_02So you mean when people are trying to sell something as their passion when in fact they've just seen the pound signs?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's to me a little bit icky.
SPEAKER_02So a bit like when we went to that mind body spirit centre many, many years back in another country and we were we asked what made them set it up, and they said because they wanted something to attract the weeping rich.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that made me cringe cringe
Books, Writing And Getting Paid
SPEAKER_03a lot. So, yes, I suppose so for me, because it's happened the other way around for me, you know, I've loved books since I was a a kid, as you I was ahead of my classmates because I could read before I went to school, thanks to my wonderful mum who sat me down and taught me how to read. Because I was ahead and you were the same, weren't you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah and then I remember the teachers telling my mum off because I was I was reading too well before I went to school.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but be because of that, because we had that kind of upbringing, we had that encouragement from our parents, and then it was just something that I loved. Every pretty much every penny of my pocket money went into books. Yeah, it was. I remember saving up for choose your own adventures. Yeah, I spy books, which I believe is all you do. I loved an ISP book.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the spy ones, the ice by spy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all sorts of different types of ice by books. I had every one and your collecting And Super Sleuth and all of those things. Right, well I don't remember those, but I do remember like the Mr. Men books before we had Little Mr.
SPEAKER_02Roger Hargreaves.
SPEAKER_03Bless him, yeah, no longer with us, but an amazing, amazing stories, and my favourite books, I'd save up for one of those and go and get one of those once every month or something.
SPEAKER_02And there was also pennies when we were a bit older, which is a beautiful story of how any idea can be turned into a successful book, a series of books, was the munch bunch. Do you remember? It was a kid who'd been making up these stories about you think of yoghurts when I think of that.
SPEAKER_03Why did I think that's a good thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, they came from the cartoon. There was this there was this kid who'd been telling her, I don't know if it was her brothers and sisters or younger family members, she'd been making up these stories about essentially humanising bits of fruit and veg to give them bedtime stories and stuff, and started writing them down, and they somehow got picked up, and the munch bunch story books that were similar to Mr. Men came from that. And then came out the yogurts and everything else that followed. I believe that's the way it happened anyway.
SPEAKER_03So again, we're showing our slight age difference, the six-year age gap between us, because you you you were obviously they came probably when I was a bit older, so then they were too old, I was too old for them when they came out.
SPEAKER_02I just remember seeing it on the news.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I just remember the yogurts. Thinking of my thinking of my food again. But yeah, so for me, it's always been there, and I've reverted back to my first love, which was books. And I've made a good business out of it, continue to make a good business out of it, and for as long as possible I hope to make a good business out of it. Does that stop you loving books? No. I can never have too many books, I can never have enough time reading and learning from other people's perspectives, points of view, their stories. I could never get enough of that. What are you reading now? What am I reading now? I'm reading at the moment, I'm reading a book called Different Not Less by Chloe Hayden. It's a neurodivergence guide to embracing your true self and finding your happily ever after. Really good. Rosie Jones, the comedian, has given it a really good testimonial. It says on the front, brilliant, beautiful, and so needed. And it is, it's a lovely book. I'm about the quarter of the way through that.
SPEAKER_02But just to prove the point, yeah, only on last week's podcast or the one before, you were still reading the the book about meta.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you are reading regularly, you're constantly getting your you know stuck in a good book.
SPEAKER_03So and if it's not that, I'm listening to podcasts and learning through that. Audiobooks as well. Usually when I'm out on the road, I'll put an audio book on. We both will.
SPEAKER_02So the majority of your business now is books, writing, content, yeah, book planning, journaling, journaling, and it hasn't taken away your joy for books, content, writing, journaling.
SPEAKER_03And what I love is the next stage of that. I'm always looking for that next stage. So where can we go with this? Where can we go with my experience, my own learning from other people that are in the same area of bit as of business as me, and also those that are further along the path, of course, we always learn in that way. I certainly do. That's my best learning. And again, with podcasting, since we started this podcast, I've met so many incredible people that are further along that the J word has we've not used it through our journey of podcasting. But I've learned so much from them, and I continue to do that. I'm always getting ideas.
SPEAKER_02And I guess you could argue that this started out as a hobby, that we're not monetising it a lot. We've had a few bits and bobs, and we've certainly got ancillary products that have come in out, that've come out of this and that we're launching.
SPEAKER_03Exactly that. But look at that again.
SPEAKER_02We didn't set this up to monetise it, we did it because we wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but guess where we're going now? We're thinking actually we could and we could have fun along the way with it too, and bring loads of other people.
SPEAKER_02But not necessarily in the same way that most other people are trying to monetize their podcast. And I hate, for us, not for other people if it works great, I hate the idea of changing the way we do our podcast in order to attract sponsorship, for instance. There's so many guides out there with what to do on how you need to niche your podcast more and how you need to record it and how you need to edit it in order to attract the sponsorship. And you and I both at right from the start went, we'd rather not have that kind of sponsorship than change who we are. We deliberately wanted to keep this kind of rough and unedited, and I can't see that changing on it anytime soon. So that for me would be where somebody, if they started this as a hobby and loved doing it, but then kind of bastardised their own values and ethos in order to get the money, that's where you could strangle any love out of a hobby.
SPEAKER_03But that's that's a choice thing, isn't it? Yeah. So we've made a conscious choice to say that's not us and that's not the route we want to take. That's not saying that's wrong for other people, too. It's just for us, it doesn't feel right at this moment. And again, never say never, you never know where we're gonna be in five years' time, ten years' time, etc. So I think that's important. It's about choice, isn't it? Yeah. And my choice, when I became so w ground down by the whole PR game, and I say that with due respect to all the PR people that are listening on the podcast, because I know how tough their job is. I've done it, we both have. Totally. It wasn't for me, it had driven me into the ground.
SPEAKER_02And to be fair, we had a business that was earning some pretty decent money doing that. Yes, yes, and we both chose to step away from it because it was never our hobby, it was never our passion, it was something that we could do and do really well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but but didn't like didn't light me up. It stopped lighting me up, actually. It used to, and then it just stopped, and I thought I can't keep doing that, hence the move to books. And I've never regretted a moment of that, not at all. And I love it whether whatever I'm talking about around books and and learning and reading myself and talking to other authors and going to author events and yeah, you know, and launch events and all of that stuff. It's amazing. So and your own books.
SPEAKER_02I mean, we've both had best-selling books published through Telqua's Tiger, or Micro Books.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In the past week, two weeks, we've both had a best-seller best selling microbook.
SPEAKER_03And they're good, they're good fun to do. It's a different skill set. I talk about this quite a bit. You'll learn that we've mentioned this again, one of our earlier episodes. I think it was episode two or episode three from series one on Microsoft.
SPEAKER_02MicroBooks Mega Massage, which somehow has had masses of downloads lately, yeah. And has gone right to the top and is now our most popular podcast of all time. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_03How's that happened? But they are so they're brilliant, and and but there is a particular way that I think you need to work with it to get the best from that kind of that that format. Um there you go again, monetising a hobby. Yeah. But does it does it lessen it? Does it make it a bit icky? No, it doesn't. It just ignites my passion all over again with another area of of books and business and words and all of that, all that wonderful stuff that I love and all that communication that goes on in building that book for somebody, helping them to build their own book, that's where I get my joy.
SPEAKER_02I guess I I can see where people are coming from to an extent, but it's the broad brush approach.
Crafting, Costs And Keeping Joy
SPEAKER_02So, for instance, one of my hobbies is like is is medicine crafting, and that came that started many, many years ago when I started having dreams where I woke up with a very, very clear kind of visual memory of something that I'd made in the dream. And the first thing I ever made from that, I think, was a was a staff, and it was a a leather-bound staff with peyote beading around the centre. I've still got it. And then people asked started asking me if I could make them some. And eventually, this this hobby I had of crafting things that I dreamed, whether it was a piece of medicine jewellery or a I don't know, a wand or a staff or berthing drums, rattles, anything that that tied in with the more spiritual elements of my life, it's a bloody good job I could monetize it because frankly, we were getting piles and piles of stuff that was feeling compelled to create this creative urge, I've got to make that real. And there's only so much you can give away, but also, depending on the kind of hobby, hobby that you have, hobbies aren't always free. So if I think about the crafting elements of mine, whether I'm buying in, you know, semi-precious gems for the pieces of medicine jewellery or you know, the the rawhide or other materials, I'm still trying to find a vegan alternative for for drums and the drum hoops or tools like a decent pyrography iron. Regularly replacing my little Dremel drills whenever I need them. The studio space that I rent for that, sandpaper, all of the different tools that I use, they're not cheap. It's not a cheap hobby. So what on earth is wrong with monetising that? But I can see it the other way around. So back in the day where I used to do quite a lot of kind of mind body spirit events and craft affairs and take my my wares along to them.
SPEAKER_03We also we used to organise them as well, didn't we?
SPEAKER_02We did. We did it every now and then, I'll still do one. But I would still do the typical ADHD thing. That kind of crafting was a hobby, still is that I love. But I loved it when I was feeling in the mood to do it. If I left it to the last minute and it's kind of, I don't know, Thursday, and I've got an event on Sunday and suddenly think I haven't got enough stock. I would be at the studio dawn till dusk, madly beavering away, then that starts to feel more like something operational than a hobby.
SPEAKER_03So remember those days, remember those days.
SPEAKER_02Or nights. That's when you stop following creative impulse and start kind of producing inventory.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that can sap the joy a little bit. Yeah. But that's always within your control, whatever your hobby is. So I suppose thinking about it in other ways, other things that could really fuck with the hobby. Taking commissions that you really don't want. I remember taking a commission I was quite keen on at one point, but the person who was commissioning it kept disagreeing with the designs I was coming up with. And it turned out they effectively wanted me to do an absolute copy of something that I was already using. And I have a very hard rule that everything I create in that environment comes from the dream, meditations, journey work. So I never do two pieces exactly the same. And in the end, I went, have your money battle of I'm not doing it. And I finished creating the piece that was making anyway, and of course it sold like that. So that can mess it up, I suppose. Deadlines getting in the way of inspiration, that's kind of what we just talked about with.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's it, isn't it? And that's and there is that challenge, particularly if I come back to the the book, the whole book element of that of creating a book. You've got to have deadlines on books, you've got to have that to keep you on track, and also because it's not just one person producing that book, you've got to think about the designers and the editors and everybody else involved, as well as the author and the publisher. So there's different stages of that. So deadlines are so important, but still creating that deadline, certainly in the book world, is also the exciting bit because that means it's that stage further on from actually pressing that button and publishing.
SPEAKER_02You've got to remember why it is you're doing what you're doing. What else could screw it up? Um making or doing what sells that is aligned to your hobby rather than what really interests you.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02So for instance, if we go back to those craft fair days, I could have sold just the charm bracelets that I was making.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But again, that would have become a factory production line rather than thinking what needs to go on this piece of medicine jewellery, who's it for? What are the what are the crystals, what are the what are the charms, what are the symbols that need to be on it, who is it for? Because I was absolutely crafting with the solid belief that I was making that thing for an owner that was already out there somewhere and I just had to wait for the the energetic threads to to align. So I suppose it in that way, if I'd just gone into I sell loads of those, so let's just do those, that would have taken the inspiration out of it, the joy out of it a little bit. Instead, it's finding that balance. Let's have enough of those to make sure that we at least cover the cost of the stand. But the core of my work is this stuff that I enjoy and that still fills me up from the inside out.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's a bit like me, I suppose, you know, deciding that the only books I'm ever going to do are, for instance, B2B books. And at the moment, a huge amount of the books that I'm helping to produce are B2B, i.e., business books. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that there aren't other plans out there and already work beginning on other areas of the business that I'm really excited about getting to grips with and working with people in that way.
SPEAKER_02So isn't it every individual's responsibility to make sure that they keep their eye on the ball in in terms of still doing the stuff that lights them up, even if there's a portion of their work that they're doing to tick the money box.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I suppose.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Customers expecting access to you. That's another one that I think can be messy if you do your boundaries degrees.
SPEAKER_03Boundaries again.
SPEAKER_02So I remember the first time I had a studio that I paid for for that kind of it was hideous. It was hideous. At first I had this studio, there was nothing in my contract anywhere to say that I needed to be open to the public or how many hours that I needed to be there.
SPEAKER_03You had a terrible you know, it was awful experience with that, though. Really, really awful.
SPEAKER_02Essentially, my face didn't fit and my craft work didn't fit. Or just the owner just took a dislike to me. Well, whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But for lots of reasons, I think, why, but it wasn't.
SPEAKER_02Essentially though, I was doing because we were still one in the business as well, I was kind of five to nine, and I I'd love I'd love to get to the end of the day and go off there in the evening and spend the evening creating.
SPEAKER_03Especially in the summer, it's like you just sit outside and do some craft work.
SPEAKER_02But then there was more and more pressure to be there when people were there so that people could come and watch me doing my craft work, and it it was never taken on as a living studio. So in the end, it got really, really messy. I got really messed up by it, probably still got a bit of PTSD from that. I ended up feeling really, really bullied and really as well. Massive RSD, really horrible. And in the end, we ended up moving.
SPEAKER_03But I'm thinking in contrast, where you are now, you can go in at any time you want to, you've got 24-hour access. If you want to go at 10 o'clock on a Friday.
SPEAKER_02And then give a rat sat if I don't turn up for years, or if I go there every week or every night until midnight, doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_03Perfect, fine. When you want to.
SPEAKER_02But that's one of the things I think. If you're doing your your hobby as a business, and because it's because people know you have a real joy for it and it's your passion, people are expecting to just be part of that with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That can sometimes impede it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I suppose perhaps to people listening, if you're thinking about doing that and turning that hobby into a business, one of the things is get those guidelines, those parameters clear right from the beginning, so that you know that actually, yeah, I I love this with a passion, but actually this is this is acceptable for me. But on, for instance, I don't know, on Saturday, no, Saturday is a day to do something completely different, or Saturday is a day when I'm only doing X amount of hours a day in the day.
SPEAKER_02Just being aware of tipping into obligation at any point, isn't it? That can do it. Yeah. So it's turning something that's kind of it's restorative the right word when it lights you up, I suppose it is. Yeah. Turning something that lights you up, that that restores your energy, your vibrancy, your vitality into something that just feels like another obligation, yeah, that's gonna dampen it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And scaling, pressure to scale something that was perfectly okay. It is it's its original size and scale as a hobby, and having this pressure, pressure, pressure that if it's a business, you need to scale. No, you bloody don't. No, you don't. It's up to you. Again, choice. You might not want to do a six, seven-figure business, or you might want to be want that as something else. It might be that your hobby is a side business that you are monetizing because it's funding that hobby and giving you some pocket money on top of something else, which brings us to portfolio careers. There's an awful lot of people now who have portfolio careers where they have lots of different things that they do, and that's absolutely valid.
SPEAKER_03And I think for I mean, from my point of view, even though okay, I might have one area of business I'm working on, because I work with a a variety of authors, I love that variety and that and that ability to be able to swap from that into some of the other work that I've done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but also, you know, you run and co-run with me our 13 month and three year spiritual empowerment programmes.
SPEAKER_03So that again, that takes me in a different direction.
SPEAKER_02You sometimes run your own spiritual development programmes and workshops.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We do the drumming and meditation events between us. So although I know that so much of your work is spirit led, it kind of ties in, in the same way that so much of my coaching is is informed and connected to the energy and spirit work I do. You can't separate it. But if somebody looked at all of the elements of my business, I could draw a line through and map all the way through and show them where it all connects. I worry slightly for people who have lots of completely disparate businesses where there's no flow between them before but at all and it just feels really disjointed. But so long as you can have a number of different areas in your business that are lots of multiple income streams and you can find the thread through them all so that you don't feel depleted and again you don't feel schizophrenic, go for it.
SPEAKER_03Well, a great classic example. Just before we we came on to record this today, we both were chatting about, I'm not going to give too much away because it's a really new idea that we want to look at in more detail. But we were literally from a five-minute conversation, we came up with another idea.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's an it's an ad it's an add-on to something we've talked about before, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_03But it's gonna be brilliant. Of course that that absolutely works because it connects with this part of the business with this part of the business, and I can see why that would really, you know, attract a lot of people that are already in a funnel for want of a better word. Yeah, but I didn't feel a thing, but obviously I must narrow my funnel. But it's yeah, but I but that I loved that moment because we from there we're able to come up with this fantastic idea. Now we've got to look at how we can actually make that work, but the early signs are really good, so I think it's it's lovely that we can do that, but then because of that common thread that goes all the way through our work, whether it's your work individually or my work individually, and the two coming together, they do dovetail beautifully. Yeah, and I think as long as you can see that and sense that all the way through, then you've still got something that could be a hobby that turns into a business.
SPEAKER_02But also, we have fun with our businesses. So if we come up with a bonkers idea, but it makes us laugh when we think it might be viable. We'll go let's throw it. Look at the the little book book of sweary soul kicks, the microbook I brought out week, two weeks ago, whatever it was. That went from concept to published book in l in less than a fortnight.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because we'd go all gone, oh, that'd be really fun to do, that'd be loads of fun to do. And it tied in with our crazy, let's get five books finished in a week. Yeah. We got two done, but we're still gonna try and squeeze a few more out.
SPEAKER_03We're on the third one now, so we'll get there.
SPEAKER_02But that that was fun. And it's not gonna make me a million quid, but it was fun to do. It's a brand builder, and it's another income stream, and something that hopefully will help other people. So why would you not do it? It's almost like I don't know if you enjoy doing that, you can't possibly earn money from it. Rubbish. None of those things we've talked about that can sap the joy and suck the life out of your hobby actually have anything to do with monetising itself. They're all caused by your business model and not setting firm enough boundaries around it. That's it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and again, that comes down to choice because that's up to you to decide whether or not, you know, you've made the right choices and put in the right boundaries. So, yeah.
Hotline Question On Stillness
SPEAKER_02Right, shall we pause it though? There's a natural pause here, so let's pause and do hotline caller of the week.
SPEAKER_04Hello, lovely Tazant Asher. This is Claire from Dovery Flexology. Just a quick question. As busy, absolutely off your rocker sometimes, ADHD experiencing beautiful human beings, how do you juggle running a business, keeping sane, keeping balance, remaining mindful so your head doesn't explode, and also finding stillness? I know you run your meditation classes on your Wednesdays once a month, but how do you find ways of finding stillness and staying grounded whilst also finding space for your incredible off-the-wall thoughts, processes, and wonderful coaching ideas? Look forward to hearing your answer.
SPEAKER_00Want to be featured? Call our hotline on 033-0027-2871. Remember to add plus 44 if you're outside the UK. Leave your name, record your message, then listen out on future episodes.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thanks for that awesome question, Claire. It ties in nicely with what we're talking about, actually.
SPEAKER_03It does, doesn't it? Ties in beautifully into that goal.
SPEAKER_02Because how do we make sure that we have a clear mindset and how do we look after our energy? I guess Claire's asking in a nutshell. I think some of that does tie into making sure that your business is something that you love doing. So for me, it'll be things like journaling, it'll be I have a morning ceremony that I do most mornings, although to be fair, last week or so I haven't need to pick that back up. Largely because it involves getting in the podcast, in the podcast, in the cold pod. In the cold podcast. Oh, there's an idea. Maybe we should do that. I'd be happy in the cold pod. There's a bloody hose pipe ban.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I could just go and do it jug by jug by jug.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but that'd take a long time, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02So that's disrupted things for me at the moment. But it's also. I think it's really important whether you enjoy your business or not, it I think it's really important to ring fence proper time off.
SPEAKER_03I I mean we notice the difference when we haven't, and I know that we've talked about it before, haven't we? But when we've So, for instance, this year we've not had a holiday per se at all. We've had a little break, but that's about it, a couple days. Yeah. And we're noticing the difference now getting into coming into September. So I think, yeah, I think ring fencing that is really important, and yet we've done that quite a few times, or we haven't done it and paid the price for it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean to be fair, we're we always I think tie holidays into business trips. We've got quite canny in that regard. I we don't waste the travelling, we'll we'll two birds and one stone. But even if you're not going away somewhere, I ring fence the last week of every month to be usually without clients. And yes, sometimes I have to catch up on work, but it's also about just going and chilling. Just doing stuff that you want to do without without the pressure to perform for anyone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but what does chilling look like? It's gonna depend for different people, isn't it? It does. I mean, for me, it might just be sitting in the garden with a cup of tea. Yeah. You know, when it's not too hot because we've got a south facing garden, so it gets really um but now it's cooler, it's perfect. So of an evening before I go and feed my little wild hedgehog that drops into the garden. We think we might have two or three now, it's very exciting. Had to get that into an episode again, didn't I? Just for a change. Hyper focus me, no. But I love sitting just with a cupper and just sitting in the garden on the on the chair and just listening to the birds singing and looking at great big a tree that's getting bigger again now, growing back, because we had it all lopped, didn't we?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But it's looking really healthy and good, so that's lovely. It's just the simple things that reconnects me, grounds me, reminds me, even if it's only 15 minutes just with a cupper, that's a big thing. And if I haven't done that, I noticed that. Just literally putting my feet on the earth, even though we've got and we've got we've got landscaping, haven't we, which is not we haven't got a lawn but because of our dogs, but it's it's still a lovely space to sit with all the the stuff around us and all the birds. The dogs didn't get rid of the lawn. No, no, they didn't get rid of actually we when we had our Labrador, she was quite good at digging, wasn't she? A lot of holes in the lawn. Bailey quite likes digging too, so eventually we switched to patio, which Yeah, but it's no, it's nice, and as you said, when you do the morning ceremony, when I do that I notice the difference, it just grounds me and centres me for the day.
SPEAKER_02But I think it's that for me it's that sense of freedom, and what I mean by that is not having any obligations that I'm tied into over a particular time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if it's in a working week where I've got lots of clients, that's fine, but sitting out in the garden would have a different feel for me because it would be keeping an eye on my watch to make sure I'm not out there supping my tea for too long and gazing at the birds flitting about for too long. And just that knowledge of, oh, I've got to make sure I'm back in by X amount of time. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's takes away the freedom element. Yeah, it does. And I know that because if I've got I try and book clients in, but so I've got a break in between, but even if I have, you've still got that awareness that actually in 30 minutes I've got to be back at my desk.
SPEAKER_02That's the ADHD waiting thing, isn't it? Oh, that you know, well, I've got an appointment at four o'clock, therefore I have to sit still and not do anything until I have to leave.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So yeah, I think so. For me to chill out, you really to and again, you know, hobby but also business is reading. I love reading because I can be transported within seconds, I can be transported from my lounge or my office to or my garden to a completely different environment in seconds, and that's god, that's a huge dopamine hit for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Just to be able to do that, even if sometimes if I'm reading a book and I'm I'm kind of thinking, I'm not sure about the writing style with this, which again is very it's a very personal thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But once you kind of get into the rhythm of the writing and you're and it takes you into the space that they've created for you, yeah. I just it's for me, that's just an absolute gift to be able to do that within seconds to just transport yourself somewhere to another life, another perspective.
SPEAKER_02Whatever it is that brings you as an individual back to centre, you need to remember to do it regularly. And I know for me that means putting it in the diary. Or it won't happen simply because you know, ADHD brain, I'll go into hyperfocus, I'll look at what I've got on, and if it's not in front of me, I'll forget it exists.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if it's not diarised, it doesn't happen, which is again why I diarise this clear week at the end of each month. And that works for me. But the other important thing to remember thing is that it's gonna be different for everyone. I think we all have a natural ebb and flow of energy where you get to a sort certain point and then all of a sudden think I'm just so knackered, I'm gonna fall off the end of the planet if I don't do anything. So work out what that pattern is for you, and then make sure you've got some downtime scheduled in just before that is likely to happen. Whatever it is for you, whether it's going to the pub with your mates and playing darts and pool, or whether it's going to a spa or going for a for a for a walk or climbing a mountain, whatever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, or going on the penny falls, that's quite cool.
SPEAKER_02Whatever it happens to me, unless it's that one in On Stanton.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes, not so good there.
SPEAKER_02Don't go to showboat when they've got everything's magnetised and it's a con.
SPEAKER_03Or just going and sitting, you know, at the seaside, sitting on the side. Yeah, just watching the waves.
SPEAKER_02And you know, one of the things that Ash and I both love doing is good old beachcombing. We'll go and search for hagstones and stuff.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you know, last time we did that, we had such good fun doing it, and we went, I wonder if we could want run a workshop around this talking about the law around hagstones and how to tune in and find them and how to work with them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And in the end we didn't get around to running it this year, but we had people interested in coming and paying us to spend a day doing that with us. So, oh my god, now look, we've monetised a hobby again, how terrible. But again, there's nothing wrong with monetising a hobby.
SPEAKER_03Is it because oh yes, Merlin agrees. Totally. There's Merlin. You can tell what time of the day we're recording these, can't you? Because Merlin will chime in to remind me it's nearly tea time.
Freedom, False Binaries And Boundaries
SPEAKER_02I think it's because people see it as a false binary.
SPEAKER_03Okay. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02So they'll go, you have a hobby, you quit your job, and then your hobby becomes your entire livelihood. And I think that is potentially where it goes wrong, because that's when you do end up with obligations and doing stuff that just brings the money in because you have to do that hobby in order to pay your bills.
SPEAKER_03But that's putting a hell of a lot of pressure on yourself though, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02But I think that's what people are going on about when it's the old don't don't monetize your don't monetize your hobby.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So again, false binary. So so for me, that that that that career, which is built of all things I love at the top of the tree is is coaching. Then out of that naturally comes speaking and writing and training and you know, consultancy, and then the the spiritual empowerment side of the training and the coaching comes through that as well. And then coming through that comes the medicine crafts and anything else I want to create that comes through the dream. So it all connects, all of it connects, and then all of that, of course, results in money, whether it's retainers for clients, whether it's royalties from books, whether it's fees for speaking or speaker training or consultancy. But there's nothing wrong with that. It just means that I have a a varied career that that for me is all in if I did it as a spidogram, all of those monetised elements would come out of the same core. And they all flow into one another as well. So if people come to me for coaching, it often leads them into wanting to write a book, which then leads them into your business, or into wanting to be able to speak better on stage, or with wanting help with their their content, where some of that could be me, some of that might flow into your business. You know, the training, the consultancy. If I'm speaking on a stage, I'm giving some some good business stuff out there. It's not unusual for someone to say, Well, will you come and do some consultancy with my team? Would you come and do some team building? Everything flows. And then, you know, people who are on the spiritual empowerment programmes with us on the big one and the bigger one, or some even the meditation events and some of the run-off workshops we run, or we sometimes do six-week first steps in shamanism programmes online. They will often flow into somebody saying, How do I get a how do I get or make my own drum or rattle or something I can wear to remind me of this, that, or the other. Oh, there's the medicine crafting.
SPEAKER_03So it all ties in beautifully.
SPEAKER_02It all flows and and it all sends people between our businesses. And it's not been deliberately set up like that, it just works like that. It's evolved, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03It's evolution. And I and I and I love that about it because uh at the centre of all of it is the things that most drive us, fire us up, that we love. And I hope I'm pretty sure from the feedback we get that comes across because we love it, and it shows in in what we do and how we do it.
SPEAKER_02Imagine you're working with uh say a new author, let's say you're I don't know, ghostwriting a book for them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then you suddenly go, oh my god, I love doing this. I can't charge for it. I can't do this as a business because people will pay me for it.
SPEAKER_03What a load of old Tosh! All I'm gonna say was I cannot imagine doing that. For me, it's the belief that there needs to be it needs to be reciprocated. It's a it's a two-way street. If you're yes, Bailey, exactly. If you're providing a service for somebody, then you know the old people would have done that, wouldn't they? They would have we talk about, you know, they would have given a blanket or you know, a coffee or something, it's an exchange of energy. It's the same with doing that. Why would can you not do something that you're so passionate about and then charge good money for it? Yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_02There's nothing wrong with again, it's it comes down to boundaries, doesn't it? It comes down to making sure that you are being paid for work that you love and you're happy doing. But it's if it's something that you've already already enjoyed and it's kind of your sole passion, you don't allow that to get to the point where you're taking on so much of it that doesn't connect to you that it becomes stagnant.
SPEAKER_03And that comes back to some of the things we talked about before, doesn't it? Where particularly when we were, for instance, when we were running the the PR agency and we were going into some businesses that actually we were finding more challenging because it wasn't necessarily an area that was-didn't match our value set, yeah. It just wasn't fitting for us, but because it was very, very good money, very, very good money, and for a while we we did that, but it it wasn't gonna work.
SPEAKER_02Looking at now with hindsight, it's obvious why it wasn't gonna work because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should do something, but this is it's the same thing, isn't it? So it's particularly from an ADHD perspective, I think that because if I think particularly with my crafting, I know that I, in air quotes, can't make something as well if I'm not in the zone for it. If I am feeling in that creative zone and I've got that image in my head of the thing that I want to work with and birth and bring to life, it will be it will be brilliant. And I'm I'm not saying that to be boastful, I just know that if I'm in the zone for it, it will come through, whether you just see me as as the vessel or whatever, but it will come, it will come out as it's meant to. But if I try and force that when I'm not in the zone, or for those who are more woo-inclinated, when I don't have that energy spirit coming through me, being channelled into whatever it is I'm making, it's not gonna be as good. It's you know, it's a piece of bespoke jewellery versus clothes accessories. Not that there's anything wrong with clothes or accessories, but it's it's a one-off that has real energy and medicine about it, as opposed to a mass-produced bit of plastic. And I know there's a difference, so there's the danger again. If I was gonna make that my entire business, that for me wouldn't work. Because I wouldn't be able to or want to even force myself into that zone on somebody else's whim. But something that I can do when the fancy takes me that I can then monetize, perfect.
SPEAKER_03But doesn't that come back to that ability, that freedom of expression? There's you freedom. What we're fighting for at the moment, you know. If you see the way the world's going at the moment, we are fighting for the freedom of expression. When we lose that, we lose the joy, the love, the passion, the creativity. That's the danger of it. And that's what scares me more than anything. Yeah, that we're becoming a people that are losing that. If we're not careful, we're gonna lose that forever. And when there's so much that people, so many people have to offer to the world, it when they turn that hobby into a business because it's their passion and the benefits that can bring to others, as well as yourselves, yeah, in monetary game, fantastic, but not just that, and every experience that you're providing for somebody else that's buying your product or service because it comes from a place deep within you that is so meant to be and meant to be shared with the world. It's just it's like you know, think about that. I'm sure let's let's give a mention to Dolly Parton who's just passed away.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly.
SPEAKER_03The queen of country, but the queen of wonderful human person, human being of the year, I think, award to Dolly Parton.
SPEAKER_02Because she her sorry Diana, but Dolly's my queen of hearts more than anybody.
SPEAKER_03But it was her passion came through in everything, she everything she did. She never apologised for anything.
SPEAKER_02She seemed so genuine, didn't she?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But she her passion, she monetized that. She was a brilliant businesswoman, an absolute stock of a businesswoman, wasn't she? Yeah. You know, she she she I believe, I'm right, you know, the whole thing with Elvis and with her with her song that she didn't want to.
SPEAKER_02I will always love you. Elvis wanted it and she refused.
SPEAKER_03And then obviously when the film came out when Whitney did it. Exactly, and she made something like was it? I forget how many millions, but but think of some of her other ventures.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Dollywood.
SPEAKER_03She made her own amusement park. How amazing is that? And gave so much. Books, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So many books to kids.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_02And you know, in Nashville, where fair to say, I think there hasn't been so much of a an openness to some things over time, and she's always been so pro LGBTQIA plus, so brilliantly supportive.
SPEAKER_03But that creativity, that passion was there really early on, and that was nurtured, encouraged, yeah, wasn't it? Yeah. And then she she then in return helped other people find nurture their own passions.
SPEAKER_02And she came from nothing. Yeah. I was I was listening to a clip from her younger sister the other day, who was talking about when they were kids. And they used to they used to they both used to wet the bed as little kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But they'd actually have competitions about who could leave the biggest wet circle on the sheets. It's like so from really making your own entertainment for nothing. It's just brilliant. And that she'd talk about that so openly as well. So yeah, there's I think that's what made her so wonderful, wasn't it? The the joy and the love in her heart shone with everything she was doing.
SPEAKER_03But a great example of somebody that loved what she did and shared that, wanted to share that with the world, and will continue to do that, even though she's not here on this planet anymore with us, although I think part of her always will be. Yeah, we will always love her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we will. And let's also remember for all the the geeks and the nerds out there like me, you know, without her sand dollar production company, we wouldn't have such gems as Buffy Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
SPEAKER_03The cat agrees. Obviously, very witchy, see? Right. Okay. So yeah, but coming back to us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, coming back to the the the point where I was saying with with ADHD and only being able to do something well when I'm in that zone. That's another reason why it might not be the best idea to monetize just one element that you love and stick rigidly to that, because then you will be forced into a scenario where you're having to take on bits that perhaps impede your love for that thing. So it's like in the early days of setting up my coaching practice. I know I took on some clients that weren't the best fit early on. Early on in the day, I was doing bits I didn't want to do very badly, like my own accounting and trying to do my own admin. But then we all start. With the business where there are some elements we don't like, and then we aim to get to the point where we can outsource the bits we don't enjoy and only take on the clients that we know we'll have a good fit working with, and that's something that comes in time. But I still think a big part of this is in the boundaries that we all set around ourselves, and we're all going to have more than one thing that we enjoy, and we don't have to do just one thing to the absolute expulsion of everything else. Ash is now looking at me.
SPEAKER_03No, I was waiting, I was just waiting for the next thing. I'm listening, Taz, I'm listening. Because it was there wasn't a glitch, Taz. It wasn't a glitch.
SPEAKER_02Because if if what you're doing is tied into creativity, for me, creativity doesn't tie into a production schedule.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Makes sense? Yeah, because I mean obviously So don't build a business model that requires it to.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, so elements, if I look at that with my business, there are going to be elements and times when I'm working with a designer, for instance. I've got clients at the moment that are close to publication now. We're in that design stage, those final moments, those final stages of production. And again, you know, we're trying to hit some deadlines so that we can get a launch out for them at the right time. That's always going to be one of those where things do have to be done in a certain time scale, and that's sometimes when you can, you know, if you've got other lots of other things going on, it can get a little bit frisky to say the least. Yeah. But recognising that that is part of the process, that's just what's going to happen, and you either suck it up or you're in the wrong kind of business. Yeah. And there's also other ways of working around that. If that's something that really stresses you out. So for instance, with me to begin with, I was doing a lot of stuff in-house. Now I'm outsourcing because I can A, I can afford to do that, and B, it gives me so much more time to concentrate on other areas of the business that I want to grow. Yeah. And improve. Yeah. Which I wouldn't have had before. So that's also part of it, isn't it? Making those decisions, those choices at different stages of the growth of your business. Yeah. And working out what works for you so that when those deadlines come up, which they inevitably do, you can deal with it. Yeah. And that's not to say there's not the occasional day when I want to throw the computer out of the window. Absolutely. F fenestrate, your favourite word.
SPEAKER_02Fenestrate, yeah. Actually stygian's my favourite word, but the fenestrate's a close third after crepuscular.
SPEAKER_03Because I've you know, like tech like tech, I'm you know, I'm not I'm not a I'm a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to tech, but I'm learning through you and other people I've got around me to make it a little bit easier. But there are moments when I do get frustrated with it. But I've had to learn new areas of that because of what I do, so that if anything goes wrong and I've got my support network on about, I can get myself through and still meet deadlines. There's another compromise, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's another thing that's coming up for me as well. So in an age where we know that certain facets of the higher echelons of politics, shall we say, want to get us all back into offices working for other people.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And want to control self-employed people far more.
SPEAKER_03Goodness me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And want to bring in far more regimented ideas that feel a little bit 1984.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Only a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Surely the best bit of rebellion any of us can indulge in is monetising something that we love and doing it on our own terms.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In our own space.
SPEAKER_03In our own way, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The biggest, two fingers with hearts on the top, we can do.
SPEAKER_03Your book, your words, your words.
SPEAKER_02Your way. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's one of the best. That's that's the revolution.
SPEAKER_03Sister.
SPEAKER_02The revolution is going to be carved by people who monetize things they love doing. And that's what it where it would have been in the old days, wasn't it? Because how is this started, wasn't it? How is this different to doing something that you have a genuine vocation for? And surely, if we understood that, we wouldn't be telling people to not monetize their hobbies. Because this is just coming full circle back to the old ways where you have a vocation for something and you learn a trade in that, and that becomes your thing.
SPEAKER_03And going with someone, having that idea and actually acting on it. Great example, very local to us.
The Wheelie Bin Side Hustle
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Only yesterday, Taz. What happened yesterday where somebody acted on an idea and just did it? Give you a clue. It's outside. I've never been quiet. Oh! Go on then. So we've just Did you hear that delay then, listeners? What? What? That took me a minute.
SPEAKER_02Our local authority has just changed its provider. So all of a sudden, yesterday, we all got wheelie bins appearing in front of our houses.
SPEAKER_03It sounded like thunder.
SPEAKER_02Well, we did have thunder as well yesterday.
SPEAKER_03I've just slept through that.
SPEAKER_02And not just a wheelie bin, but three great big wheelie bins each and one smaller bin without wheels.
SPEAKER_03Actually, there's four because there's a bin within the bin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the bin for the bin within the bin is the inside bin.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we've got a bin for rubbish, a bin for paper and cardboard, a bin for plastics, tins and glass, and a bin for food waste.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but within the food waste bin, there's another There's a smaller food waste bin for in the house. And once we'd got over there, the bloody hell is but where are we gonna put those? What? We live in quite a small house, so it's like, okay, we'll have to work out a space for that. So we were talking about that, weren't we?
SPEAKER_02Before the end of the day, where everybody's going, where are these, where have these come from and what we're gonna do with them? Somebody in our village group was advertising printed out stick-on decorative numbers for your bins that she could do at home.
SPEAKER_03Or colour coordinated for it.
SPEAKER_02Or colour coordinated and done at home for you for fiver a piece. I mean, how's that? How how genius is that?
SPEAKER_03I love that. I know, it's like got you, go girl. And that was out within literally minutes, wasn't it, of the bins arriving. Or sorry, to me, it was within a couple of hours of them arriving, I think. So I thought that was really good. Yeah, but things like that. So to not have that, that's a little example, isn't it? But to have that, be able to act on something, to have an idea and act on it in that way and take it sometimes, take a bit of a gamble. You know, all the best business people started somewhere, yeah. And it could be something as simple as that.
SPEAKER_02I think this this thing really is is where it's it's the it's the internet doing what the internet does and putting people into little silos. This is essentially there's the there's two pieces. There's two pieces of ideology that are colliding, I reckon, that are just really going bumper to bumper.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The one that says every spare second has to be productive, you know, build out side us or monetize everything and sleep when you're dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that is going into a head-on collision with don't monetize the things you love because we must protect them from capitalism. Oh, okay. Yeah. And the trouble is that they are their extreme views. So it's polarisation again, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03There we go, more polarisation. Do we not think we've got enough of that already on the case?
SPEAKER_02I can completely understand why people have rebelled against the kind of hustle culture. And you know, there are a lot of people, quote big names, who used to go on about hustle culture an awful lot, who've since softened and said, look, your health has to come first. But that is still out there. And I think the the the extreme opposite of that, that is making sure that we don't monetize anything that we don't want to again put at risk of of turning into something that's well, capitalism. We don't want to risk things becoming part of capitalism. But they don't have to be. Do you see what I mean though? They are the two kind of opposite ends of the spectrum, aren't they?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that makes that makes me really uncomfortable just thinking about it like that. I've never thought about it like that. I just see it from perhaps a really simplistic view, but from a really personal point of view, it's what makes me get up in the morning, it's what fires me up, it's what makes me happy when sometimes life feels very dull and unimaginative and but it's because those two things are really prescriptive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But that's what happens on the internet, on social media.
SPEAKER_03So we're trying to replicate that in the real world.
SPEAKER_02You've got the butt the balanced view is I love doing this, I could do this happily for the rest of my life. Wouldn't it be lovely if I could get paid for it? And that's quite a long way away from no, that's going to be capitalism.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And I wonder if that's why. I think it's self-preservation. For personally, yeah. Always since I can remember, since I first realised that I'd got perimenopause, menopause, a bit of depression thrown in, everything else. I was going through really difficult times, but what saw me through and what has always seen me through is that work. Yeah. And I use the W word in a good positive way because it's it is something that can light me up and change my mood really seamlessly.
SPEAKER_02Totally. It's just that extreme pendulum swing, isn't it? So for instance, who benefits if creative people believe that creativity should remain unpaid, for instance. Who's going to benefit from that? And let's say something let's say there's somebody who loves mountain climbing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Somebody who loves climbing thinks that climbing has to remain their remain their weekend hobby while they spend Monday to Friday doing work they hate.
SPEAKER_03That's no life, is it?
SPEAKER_02But what if they could earn by being some kind of outdoors extreme adventures tour guide or a climbing instructor? Yeah. Or an explorer.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's so many ways that they could put that adventurous streak and their climbing ability to good use, surely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Mr. Columbus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay, that's not gonna maybe not a good choice, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02And what about what about that old that old cliche about the struggling artist? Why should they be struggling? Who benefits when artists feel grubby for asking for money for their work?
SPEAKER_03When that work could go into a home or a space and transform that space with the energy, whatever you want to call it, with the vibe that it provides and it brings for people. How many of us have sat in, I don't know, a gallery somewhere or gone to a, I don't know, even a coffee shop or something, we've seen a picture on the wall and we've just gone, oh, isn't that beautiful? Oh, I've been to that space, whether it's a landscape or it's somewhere that you recognise, or it's just really abstract and it makes you really look into it and think about what it represents for you and what it's bringing up in you. That is for me one of the pleasures, the beautiful pleasures of life. And if we take that away and everything looks the same, it's a bit like I always talk about the high street, how we're in danger of having no independent stores, so that every high street looks exactly the same. You can map it out because you know what's coming with it. Where's that variety? Where's that beautiful diversity?
SPEAKER_02But do you know what?
Who Wins When Creatives Undercharge
SPEAKER_02I think in some ways we, the royal we become our own worst enemy. And I'm gonna get nitpicky here and say women in particular.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay. Do so, I don't know where she's going with this one. Come on then.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm just following that that who benefits line across. So here's another one. Who benefits when, and I'm gonna say women in particular, just because demographically there's more women who are doing what is commonly known as crafting.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Do you have the stats about that up to you?
SPEAKER_02No, but I'm sure I could find them.
SPEAKER_03I was just gonna say, because I'd like to hear them. I'm talking about the the devil's advocate then.
SPEAKER_02You would see more women in hobby craft, right? For instance.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02That kind of craft.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But who benefits when, again, women in particular make beautiful things and are encouraged to call it just my little hobby rather than attach any economic value to that skill. But we're always saying we're our own worst enemy, and the royal we, not us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How often have you been to particularly a women's networking meeting? And then outside of that meeting, you've heard the women who see themselves as having more professional careers, I don't know, accounting, marketing, insert your own thing here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Event planning, whatever it happens to be. How often have we heard those women complaining about the women who are doing something like jewellery making or maybe a milliner we went to one with a lady who used to make hats? Yeah. How often have you heard the serious business in Air Quo's Brigade complaining that it's not good enough networking because it's just lots of women who are coming to make pin money and their husbands obviously earning the big dose so they don't need to. Yeah, I've lost count of how many times I've heard that. Hello, how judgmental is that? And you're doing this business here where your your soul is trying to crawl out of your ass.
SPEAKER_03And you are nice, that's a quote for this this week, I think.
SPEAKER_02And everything you do is based on the pound signs at the end of it. You're not happy. If you are, fine. If marketing is your hobby and you genuinely look. I mean, part of my work when when I'm working with coaches, I I love helping people to build a personal brand, and well, you can't build one, you've got one, but to hone it and to work on it and to get their messages right and to make sure that their message is something are something that that can monetize. I love that. So fine, of course I'm gonna monetize it. But I know there are gonna be people out there, self-employed people, who are doing something because they think it's going to make them rich, not because it's going to bring them any enjoyment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, not gonna light them up.
SPEAKER_02And I my argument is you can do both. I posit that you can do something you love and make good money from it.
SPEAKER_03What if that is the thing that brings you money? Because when you're feeling that, you feel into it, then you bring more into it, into that role, into that job, into that business, and it attracts more, it attracts like, attracts like. So people that feel passionate about that are going to see that passion in you and want to come and work with you. That's a very kind of you know romantic view of it. And I know it's not as simple as that, but sometimes what if it is that simple?
SPEAKER_02I think it's finding the middle ground and again not going by the extremes. And I think if somebody, if anyone listening to this finds somebody saying to them that you should not monetize your hobby because it will sap all the joy out of it, they're speaking from their own experiences and their own limiting beliefs. They're speaking about themselves, not about you. It's not monetising your hobby that saps the joy. It's not having strong enough boundaries about the kind of work you do, how often and when and for whom that saps the joy. If you can, I am still absolutely an advocate of the idea that if you can find something that you love and monetize it, you got the balance
Closing Questions And Hotline Invite
SPEAKER_02right. So I guess questions to to leave people with before we wrap.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02Are before before monetising something you love, number one, would I enjoy, would I inju, would I enjoy doing this for other people? That's a biggie. Because it might be that you just enjoy doing it for yourself and that's okay. Can I create a business model that does not destroy what I enjoy about it? Yeah. Can I say no when I don't want to do it? And I think the answers to those are largely gonna dictate whether you should monetize that thing or not. If you're saying yes to those, bloody well monetise it. Why not?
SPEAKER_03Go for it.
SPEAKER_02If selling your paint if sitting if selling your paintings only pays for your paintings and your canvases, fine. And of course it of course it's a business. If people say it's not a business if it wouldn't exist without you, again, bollocks. You know, if teaching climbing lets you spend your life on mountains instead of staring at spreadsheets, bloody awesome. Someone who has to pay you for jewellery you were gonna sit there happily making anywhere, anyway, take their money.
SPEAKER_03Bonus.
SPEAKER_02And if your hobby becomes a six-figure business and you still wake up excited to do it, nobody gets to tell you you've somehow ruined it.
SPEAKER_03Nice, I love it. Nobody. That's good. That's a good way to do that.
SPEAKER_02And equally, if you adore crochet and you'd rather chew your own arm off than make another fucking scarf because somebody on Etsy has ordered it for next Thursday, then you know what to do. Don't monetize it. Do what you want. The problem is never monetization, it's always obligation. That's that's the line for me.
SPEAKER_03Good point.
SPEAKER_02That's the line. And even if your hobby business in airquads, I hate that term, is never gonna do much more than cover your costs, but give you a life where you enjoy doing that thing, that's perfectly good in my books. Perfectly okay.
SPEAKER_03Get the balance right for you, isn't it? It's about getting that balance right, learning what's right for you. Yeah. Everybody's different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There are miserable millionaires. There are also people on this planet with not a penny to their name who are the the happiest people on earth. We've thought we're the ones who've cocked it up and got it wrong.
SPEAKER_03Nice one. Lots to think about, does.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_03Tell us what you think. Call the hotline, leave us a message there. Yeah, let us know if you've turned a hobby into a business. What's what's it been like for you? And what advice would you give to people that are thinking about doing that or have just done that and maybe finding it a bit tough at the moment? What's what's helped you?
SPEAKER_02And again, remembering that it doesn't have to be one thing. You might have one hobby that you just monetize enough to cover all your products and to allow you to keep doing it, but another something over here that you do that covers all your household bills. Doesn't matter. You can carve out the world as you want to live it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just tell us about it. Remember, you can call us on the helpline. Call us on the helpline. The hotline. We don't have a helpline. I think we might need the help. We might. I think I got that a bit wrong.
SPEAKER_02Call us on the hotline. Message us on the social channels for awesomely off topics.
SPEAKER_03Maybe there is.
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